# Fuck the Motherfucking Pope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182 "2010-05-20T21:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/561 "2010-05-25T19:51:15Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > But you have no evidence for your position, other than “the magical sky wizard told me so.” So, thank goodness, in this country a zygote currently has the same rights as the invisible untouchable non-heat-producing anaerobic floating dragon in my garage. Keeping in mind that the question is: “What is a person?” what evidence have you for your claim? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/562 "2010-05-25T19:58:00Z")
And this is why debates about the personhood of the fetus, as opposed to the rights of the woman, are pointless. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/563 "2010-05-25T20:02:51Z")
But debates about how to deal with the consequences of it being strictly a matter of faith and belief are very much to the point. That does not include, however, a “debate” based on holding one’s own strictly-faith-based POV to be a simple fact, and others to be flatly “wrong”, as the Believer in question insists in doing. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/564 "2010-05-25T20:12:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Keeping in mind that the question is: “What is a person?” what evidence have you for your claim? Brain activity. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/565 "2010-05-25T20:25:50Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Brain activity. Yeah, yeah, and then the counter-response is whether or not a brain-dead accident victim can be casually disconnected from a ventilator. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/566 "2010-05-25T20:35:19Z")
Dissolve the embryo with a chemical = killing it. Taking out a section of fallopian tube that doesn’t need taken out = killing it. And you get a side order of harming the woman. You can’t argue the tube is the primary target of the surgery since without an embryo in it, the tube would not be futzed with. I’ll have to admit I’m a little curious about just what women are supposed to do if they get an ectopic pregnancy in their abdominal cavity. Have their innards called “diseased” and yanked out? Oh well. I’m done. Call me a pessimist, but I think all of the “justifications” for mutilating women and forcing them to risk their lives for doomed embryos have already been given. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/567 "2010-05-25T20:45:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I asked **Bricker** earlier what it would take for him to leave the church. Read it. > And weep. I guess **Bricker** never learned the phrase, “actions speak louder than words.” It is the ACTIONS of the church that have shown just WHY people are so fucking furious. **Shot From Guns** – nope, wasn’t me. This has all made me more determined than ever to avoid a Catholic hospital for any gynecological issues. (I see my neurologist at one, but that’s it) ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/568 "2010-05-25T20:52:34Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > This has all made me more determined than ever to avoid a Catholic hospital for any gynecological issues. (I see my neurologist at one, but that’s it) I thought it was only men who had their brain there ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/569 "2010-05-25T20:53:14Z")
Too late to edit: **aruvqan** , that’s extremely horrifying and disturbing – my condolences, even at this late time. How disgusting! (The attitudes of the church, NOT the actual procedure) ETA: **Angry Lurker** – ha ha. That was really lame. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/570 "2010-05-25T20:58:53Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Whatever canon law is, didn’t Jesus Christ (who never said one word about abortion and it certainly existed when he lived) _repeatedly_ preach practicing the spirit of the law rather than blind adherence to the letter of the law? > > Pretty much the entirety of [Matthew 23](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NIV), but some selections therefrom: > > He seems to think mercy the better part of law and that corruption within a religious insitution should be called what it is and that the institution should clean itself up before worrying about what lies beyond it. Congratulations Sampiro! You’re the millionth! The millionth doper to misquote Matthew 15 in righteous indignation. Perhaps theres a coffee mug or other prize from Ed. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/571 "2010-05-25T21:09:59Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Congratulations Sampiro! > > You’re the millionth! > > The millionth doper to misquote Matthew 15 in righteous indignation. Perhaps theres a coffee mug or other prize from Ed. Got anything better? Or just laaaaaaaaaaaame snark? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/572 "2010-05-25T22:24:01Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Believe me, **Bricker** , I get no pleasure from this thread. I was raised Catholic, and while I have fond memories of my friends and teachers from school, I’ll be damned if I ever raise any child of mine in the Church. And if I ever get married, I’d always wanted to do so in the church I grew up in – I was baptised, confirmed, and had my communion there. But that’s impossible. > > It isn’t the bashers turning against the church – it’s the Church turning the people away with their actions. My case exactly. My parents are still practicing Catholics, and most of my relatives too. There was anyone who convinced me to leave the church (then become an Atheist), it was the Church itself who drove me out. For a long time after that I really tried to believe, and even tried to “go back”. I couldn’t. > [@RedFury](#): > > Time. The RCC is down to basically two geographic areas (Latin America & Africa) with it only being dominant in LA. In contrast the decline in its former bastion, Europe, is not just noticeable, but from their perspective alarming – and not trending their way either, what with empty churches and seminaries. I have the distinct feeling that the RCC’s days in LA (as an important force) are fewer than my life expectancy. Chile, the most fiercely Catholic country in the continent elected an Atheist woman for president, that tells you where the winds are blowing. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/573 "2010-05-25T22:28:43Z")
> [@Denis](#): > > Got anything better? Or just laaaaaaaaaaaame snark? Uhh, no. But…should Sampiro not wish to correct me, and you’re game, I’d consider you a worthy surrogate. Whaddayasay? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/574 "2010-05-25T23:29:10Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Brain activity. No question that brain activity is not present in an embryo. But on what basis do you declare that brain activity is a _sine qua non_ of personhood? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/575 "2010-05-25T23:43:03Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Uhh, no. > > But…should Sampiro not wish to correct me, and you’re game, I’d consider you a worthy surrogate. I’ll play, but before I can “correct” you it is incumbent upon you to explain exactly why Matthew 15 is “misquoted”. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/576 "2010-05-26T00:09:14Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Congratulations Sampiro! > > You’re the millionth! > > The millionth doper to misquote Matthew 15 in righteous indignation. Perhaps theres a coffee mug or other prize from Ed. I thought the Pit was too “uncivilized” for you? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/577 "2010-05-26T00:59:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I guess **Bricker** never learned the phrase, “actions speak louder than words.” It is the ACTIONS of the church that have shown just WHY people are so fucking furious. It’s worse than that. The dividing line for him between absolute fealty and leaving the organization entirely has nothing to do with what they do, but only in what they say they do. Only the words matter to him, not the deeds. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/578 "2010-05-26T01:36:10Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > What wit? I included no humor in my post. You seem fixated on one sperm and one egg=human life. It doesn’t. It does often, but not always. Viability matters the first few months of any pregnancy–many a fertilized egg does not implant or the pregnancy proceed. In words you can understand: the baby doesn’t grow. > > Riddle me this: if the fertilized egg (the ectopic pregnancy) is surgically removed from the Fallopian, how come the Church does not then insist on everything possible being done to nurture this “person”–petrie dish, artificial womb etc? Afterall, it has the same rights as dear old mom. The Church merely cavils at destroying the EP while it’s in the woman–it has no compunction about killing it once it’s been removed. They call its removal a secondary cause of demise or some such dry, distant phrase, all the while putting dear old mom at more risk. But she’s just a woman; her only value to the Church is as a vessel for more members. Sentient females certainly are not valued within the Church. If anything, the Church’s approach to this is even more evil than it first appears: instead of doing the safest thing, their “rules” put “mom” at risk AND then they go against their espoused principles and destroy the “person” they put mom at risk to save. Pontius Pilate could take lessons from the Church. :rolleyes: > > Why? Why does the integrity of something that is incapable of surviving or growing into something that will survive matter? Are funerals for hydatiform moles and ectopic pregnancies common in the Church? First I’d heard of it. Does a priest come and perform whatever they now call Last Rites? I fully understand the parents grieving the loss of potential, but that is what is lost: the potential of a future baby, there was no baby. EP and HM are cruel tricks nature plays on people–unless you interpret them as God’s will, which adds another whole level of pain on hurting people. But that’s another thread. I’m fixated on biological truth. Don’t try to teach me biology, please; I know enough for this debate. Viability may be important for others things, not for rights. Natural actions are morally neutral, so to non-omplantation of a fertlised egg (i.e. a person) results in its death. The care afforded is analogous to giving the accused all sorts of rights instead of getting the guy in prison first and checking 20 years later. This often leads to pain and suffering for others people, yet we still do it. There is no killing, so the riddle is wrong from the beginning. You apparently still don’t get the difference (and importance) between killing and being incapable to save a life. If we had artificial wombs we should use them. “She’s only a woman” is your phrase. Caring for the defenceless, for the dieing, for those who would not survive is only cruelty in your eyes. Once more so you can understand, there is no biological reason for your statements. EP is a baby, unless personhood depends on the “geographical” position. Two centimetres to the left and your are not a person. HMs are more complicated than my knowlege of Canon Law allows me to give answer, but staying with the general principle, if it is clearly a group of cells that’s no developing into what it should but something more akin to a tumour, then personhood/humanity would not be an issue. Unless you’re batised, there would be no Anointment of the Sick. I’d guess death would happen too quickly unless baptism could be done immediately (it could). There is a provision in canon law > [@](#): > > Can. 1183 > §2 Children whose parents had intended to have them baptised but who died before baptism, may be allowed Church funeral rites by the local Ordinary. The short answer is yes. They are not common, however. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/579 "2010-05-26T01:59:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A) How is this relevant? > B) Did the Buddha even care about the survival of the species? He taught that our ultimate goal should be nibbana, the cessation of rebirth, did he not? “Nibbana?” Is that a typo, or did you get your knowledge of Buddhism from transcripts of _The Prakash and Andy Radio Hour_? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/580 "2010-05-26T02:08:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > “Nibbana?” > > Is that a typo, or did you get your knowledge of Buddhism from transcripts of _The Prakash and Andy Radio Hour_? I’ll let Bricker answer, but, here’s a secret, _Google is your friend_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=30)