# Fuck the Motherfucking Pope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182 "2010-05-20T21:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/801 "2010-06-01T13:27:57Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I would think that being a teacher, while giving the pedophile SOME access, comes with constraints and policies, procedures and an awareness of the liability of such accusations. And actually working for a friggin’ living. Any idiot can be a priest. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/802 "2010-06-01T14:21:25Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > And actually working for a friggin’ living. Any idiot can be a priest. And the Church doesn’t exactly have young men lining up to join, so I would think that the vetting process is not super stringent. Also, anyone can assume piety and devotion as a facade. And as I said, no doubt there are some candidates who see it as a way of removing themselves from the “temptations” of the real world. I say real world advisedly; I have a friend who has 2 brothers who are priests in the New England area. According to her, these guys do NOTHING for themselves. They are waited on hand and foot by either the women in the Church office or the women in the Church parish. When their mother was dying and my friend was flying out there to help, she had to remind her brothers that she was not one of their parishioners, so they could jolly well assist their mother to eat etc \* AND pick up after themselves, since Nancy wasn’t about to do it. The sad thing is that one of this woman’s sons (a priest) lived not 2 miles from his mother. One could argue that as a priest, he was busy with parish duties. One would lose that argument. **Aji:** commonality doesn’t make it right. Commonality seems to be your only argument, and even you say that criminals should go to jail. I notice you don’t say that priests who are found and convicted of child molestation should go to jail. Of course, we still haven’t seen the “new” Church in action against any priest. By action, I mean reporting to the authorities–the local LAW enforcement authorities, NOT the Bishop–any accusations. Also, it’d be helpful if the parishioners felt like they weren’t betraying their priest and church family by contacting the police. IOW, the culture of the Church must change. It’s one thing to say, “we’ve got a nice, new shiny policy!” but if it’s gathering dust on the shelf due to a don’t ask-don’t tell atmosphere, all you’ve got is a bunch of wasted paper. Institutional cultural change comes from the top down–and we have any number of out of touch, old men who are entrenched, entitled and imbued with too much power, both direct and referent. Put it this way: I’m not holding my breath. \*the sole daughter ending up as the caregiver for elderly parents occurs in non-Catholic households, too. Doesn’t make these 2 guys any less of selfish assholes. Saying the rosary over your mother doesn’t clean her bed linen. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/803 "2010-06-01T14:27:08Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > And the Church doesn’t exactly have young men lining up to join, so I would think that the vetting process is not super stringent. Also, anyone can assume piety and devotion as a facade. And as I said, no doubt there are some candidates who see it as a way of removing themselves from the “temptations” of the real world. > I say real world advisedly; I have a friend who has 2 brothers who are priests in the New England area. According to her, these guys do NOTHING for themselves. They are waited on hand and foot by either the women in the Church office or the women in the Church parish. When their mother was dying and my friend was flying out there to help, she had to remind her brothers that she was not one of their parishioners, so they could jolly well assist their mother to eat etc \* AND pick up after themselves, since Nancy wasn’t about to do it. The sad thing is that one of this woman’s sons (a priest) lived not 2 miles from his mother. One could argue that as a priest, he was busy with parish duties. One would lose that argument. > > **Aji:** commonality doesn’t make it right. Commonality seems to be your only argument, and even you say that criminals should go to jail. I notice you don’t say that priests who are found and convicted of child molestation should go to jail. Of course, we still haven’t seen the “new” Church in action against any priest. By action, I mean reporting to the authorities–the local LAW enforcement authorities, NOT the Bishop–any accusations. Also, it’d be helpful if the parishioners felt like they weren’t betraying their priest and church family by contacting the police. IOW, the culture of the Church must change. It’s one thing to say, “we’ve got a nice, new shiny policy!” but if it’s gathering dust on the shelf due to a don’t ask-don’t tell atmosphere, all you’ve got is a bunch of wasted paper. Institutional cultural change comes from the top down–and we have any number of out of touch, old men who are entrenched, entitled and imbued with too much power, both direct and referent. Put it this way: I’m not holding my breath. > > \*the sole daughter ending up as the caregiver for elderly parents occurs in non-Catholic households, too. Doesn’t make these 2 guys any less of selfish assholes. Saying the rosary over your mother doesn’t clean her bed linen. Still no research. How can you construe that “criminals should go to prison” does not include priests that commit crimes? I’ll say it again: ALL CRIMINALS (PRIESTS AND NOT PRIESTS) BELONG IN PRISON. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/804 "2010-06-01T14:49:10Z")
I am not your research assistant. This is not GD. I have no time to waste on researching whether priests who molest children should go to prison (yes) or have gone to prison (IMS, one in the US). If there is so much research out there, why don’t you bring some to the fore? Oh, not the swim coaches et al, but the RCC? What does research prove in this instance, anyway? We know that priests have molested children in the past and currently. The top dog of the Church (he of the Gucci slippers) has admitted it. What more research do you need? I wanted to see you post that priests who have committed criminal acts belong in prison\*. Now, about that entrenched culture of cover-up and blame-the-victim… \*I am not sure just how a prison sentence is the best answer, but the treatment, legal or therapeutic or both, of pedophiles is beyond the scope of this train wreck. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/805 "2010-06-01T16:40:28Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > … > I think I may speak for all of those in here that are condemning the RCC for their tacit allowance of child molestation over decades, if not centuries, when I say that we’re against child molestation in any institution. That said, we are discussing the entrenched culture of pedophilia within the RCC and their intriguing, arbitrary and misogynistic approach to excommunication. What teachers behaving very badly (or swim coaches or summer camp counselors or fill in the blank) has to do with the uniquely Catholic response to this issue escapes me. … Exactly! ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/806 "2010-06-01T16:48:53Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I am not your research assistant. This is not GD. I have no time to waste on researching whether priests who molest children should go to prison (yes) or have gone to prison (IMS, one in the US). > > If there is so much research out there, why don’t you bring some to the fore? Oh, not the swim coaches et al, but the RCC? > > What does research prove in this instance, anyway? We know that priests have molested children in the past and currently. The top dog of the Church (he of the Gucci slippers) has admitted it. What more research do you need? > > I wanted to see you post that priests who have committed criminal acts belong in prison\*. Now, about that entrenched culture of cover-up and blame-the-victim… > > \*I am not sure just how a prison sentence is the best answer, but the treatment, legal or therapeutic or both, of pedophiles is beyond the scope of this train wreck. I’m not your research assistant either. You ask about other cases of abuse and coverup and then complain. The horrifying culture of secrecy has to change and there are several moves on the rigth track many more shouyld be made. Guilty people should be punished. (and this it is for me regareding you questions. I’ve answered in good faith.) > [@SteveG1](#): > > Exactly! If you ask about other cases in other institutions andI show them, how can that be wrong? Is it less abuse if a swim coach does it? Or swim coaches don’t make for good thread titles? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/807 "2010-06-01T16:51:09Z")
The national swimming federation doesn’t move its coaches to new programs when they get caught diddling kids. Other than that, I got nothin’. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/808 "2010-06-01T16:53:52Z")
Is there a swim coach pope who in his earlier years as a swim coach bishop put the interests of organized swim coaching ahead of that of the swimmers? Just kidding, I don’t give a fuck. The RCC’s sins don’t get any better just by pointing out that others have done it, too. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/809 "2010-06-01T17:01:29Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I’m not your research assistant either. > You ask about other cases of abuse and coverup and then complain. > > The horrifying culture of secrecy has to change and there are several moves on the rigth track many more shouyld be made. Guilty people should be punished. > (and this it is for me regareding you questions. I’ve answered in good faith.) > > If you ask about other cases in other institutions andI show them, how can that be wrong? > Is it less abuse if a swim coach does it? Or swim coaches don’t make for good thread titles? So start a thread about swim coaches, and I will cheerfully join in on the condemnation of deviant swim coaches too. Yes, the “code of silence”, the idea that the victim should feel ashamed, is wrong and needs to be stopped. And, that means going to the police immediately, in ALL cases. No matter who did it. Likewise, any person who assists in covering it up, or pressuring the victim into silence, should go to jail with the perpetrator, for conspiracy and obstruction of justice. That’s the law, as far as I understand it. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/810 "2010-06-01T17:14:57Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I’m not your research assistant either. > You ask about other cases of abuse and coverup and then complain. I have never in this thread asked about other situations re abuse of children. You are conflating my posts with someone else’s. > [@](#): > > The horrifying culture of secrecy has to change and there are several moves on the rigth track many more shouyld be made. Guilty people should be punished. Well, DUH. I mean, is the Pope Catholic? > [@](#): > > (and this it is for me regareding you questions. I’ve answered in good faith.) I didn’t ask you any questions. I asked some rhetorical questions and made some salient observations regarding the Church’s position and its apologists. I include you with **Bricker** in being a Church apologist. I did ask you directly just what kind of “research” you are looking for. You didn’t answer me. > [@](#): > > If you ask about other cases in other institutions andI show them, how can that be wrong? > Is it less abuse if a swim coach does it? Or swim coaches don’t make for good thread titles? Quoted for proof that you don’t read for comprehension. We’ve all agreed with you, many pages ago, that sexual molestation of children should not occur, no matter the venue. Now, can we get back to discussing the bizarre response the Church has had to its littlest and most helpless lambs? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/811 "2010-06-01T18:15:52Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I have never in this thread asked about other situations re abuse of children. You are conflating my posts with someone else’s. That would be me. I was so SICK AND TIRED of the “other groups do it too”, that I finally asked who these others were. Not that it changes any thing at all. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/812 "2010-06-01T20:08:20Z")
When I was a kid, I remember being told that the “but they did it too!” argument was an extremely lousy defense. We might as well reply, “Well, if someone ELSE jumped off a bridge, should the RCC do it too?” When will you get it through your fucking skulls, it’s NOT about the abuse so much as the way the church DEALT with the situation? Do I see school districts moving their teachers to other classrooms? I believe I’ve mentioned this before, but a distant relative of mine, who’s a priest, ended up being excommunicated and started [his own church](http://www.christhope.com/) over basically all of this bullshit. What brought it all to light? When he gave a sermon saying that all good Catholics should be “pissed off” about the cover-up of child abuse. (Yes, there’s [a lot more to it than that](http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A54883), but I’ll let you read the whole thing for yourselves, rather than recount it all here.) That they’d discipline someone for pointing out that “hey, this is WRONG”, I don’t think that speaks well of the RCC. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/813 "2010-06-01T20:17:27Z")
Heh, I thought you were making a Martin Luther reference… Were any of his theses relevant to this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/814 "2010-06-01T21:21:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heh, I thought you were making a Martin Luther reference… > > Were any of his theses relevant to this discussion? Luther was talking about the sale of indulgences - the rich could buy their way into heaven :rolleyes: However, there was one thesis that could be broadened to cover… _90. These questions are serious matters of conscience to the laity. To suppress them by force alone, and not to refute them by giving reasons, is to expose the church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christian people unhappy._ Apparently, Luther had a serious problem with corruption and dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/815 "2010-06-02T17:32:57Z")
Like this is surprising… [Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8624763.stm) got approval from Pope John Paul II when writing to support covering up and helping to hide a bishop who had molested children. [NY Times article proving approval from PJP II](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22priest.html) > [@](#): > > The cardinal compounded the controversy last week when he said at a conference in Spain that Pope John Paul II had authorized the letter and told him to send it to bishops around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/816 "2010-06-02T18:25:44Z")
That’s why the church is getting so much grief. It is not just a ‘few bad apples’ it’s the entire hierarchy that is rotten. Firing or replacing a few cardinals won’t do, the entire structure needs to be demolished and in a perfect world not replaced. The people in charge derserve nothing less than full contempt. Apologists who allow it to happen and continue to support it deserve the same contempt. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/817 "2010-06-02T18:25:48Z")
This hardly proves JPII’s involvement; all we have is the word of Cardinal Hoyos. But this is a test for Joey the Rat: how long will it take him to defrock this abomination of a cardinal? > [@](#): > > Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, a Colombian who formerly headed the Vatican’s Congregation for the Clergy, came under fire last week when a Web site posted a letter he wrote in 2001 praising a French bishop for refusing to hand over to the police a priest who had raped children. > > “I congratulate you for not denouncing a priest to the civil administration,” Cardinal Castrillón wrote to Bishop Pierre Pican, who was convicted in France for failing to report sex crimes against children. “You have acted well, and I am pleased to have a colleague in the episcopate who, in the eyes of history and of all other bishops in the world, preferred prison to denouncing his son and priest.” And I don’t want to hear from **Bricker** about how the means of defrocking a cardinal are convoluted (or nonexistent) and blah blah blah. What I want to hear from **Bricker** , if anything, is why Joey can’t excommunicate Hoyos unless and until Hoyos voluntarily withdraws from holy orders and ceases accepting any remuneration or support from the RCCC. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/818 "2010-06-02T18:40:21Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > That’s why the church is getting so much grief. It is not just a ‘few bad apples’ it’s the entire hierarchy that is rotten. Firing or replacing a few cardinals won’t do, the entire structure needs to be demolished and in a perfect world not replaced. The people in charge derserve nothing less than full contempt. Apologists who allow it to happen and continue to support it deserve the same contempt. I am in 100% agreement with your sentiments here. However…Why are we incapable of using accurate and direct language? The people in charge deserve nothing less than prosecution to the full extent of the law. What does that mean? That means if you make a habit of shoving your penis into the mouths of 9 year old boys and are caught out, you go to jail. It doesn’t mean you get a promotion to a swankier archdiocese ( which, near as I can figure out, is Latin for " tasty feeding ground " ) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/819 "2010-06-02T18:49:49Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This hardly proves JPII’s involvement; all we have is the word of Cardinal Hoyos. > > But this is a test for Joey the Rat: how long will it take him to defrock this abomination of a cardinal? > And I don’t want to hear from **Bricker** about how the means of defrocking a cardinal are convoluted (or nonexistent) and blah blah blah. > > What I want to hear from **Bricker** , if anything, is why Joey can’t excommunicate Hoyos unless and until Hoyos voluntarily withdraws from holy orders and ceases accepting any remuneration or support from the RCCC. Then ask your question in GQ. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/820 "2010-06-02T18:52:14Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I am in 100% agreement with your sentiments here. However…Why are we incapable of using accurate and direct language? > > The people in charge deserve nothing less than prosecution to the full extent of the law. What does that mean? That means if you make a habit of shoving your penis into the mouths of 9 year old boys and are caught out, you go to jail. > > It doesn’t mean you get a promotion to a swankier archdiocese ( which, near as I can figure out, is Latin for " tasty feeding ground " ) Again, it isn’t just the buggering priests themselves. The bishops, archbishops, and cardinals who covered the trails of the priests and moved them to new pastures need to be prosecuted as well. In the U.S., I’ve long wondered if the RICO statutes (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) apply. I’d love to see the RCCC brought down by those statutes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=42)