# Fuck the Motherfucking Pope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182 "2010-05-20T21:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/81 "2010-05-21T14:23:34Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > **Bricker** , we’ve got two situations here that we’re talking about. > > One, a nun who allowed an abortion which saved the life of the mother. If the mother had died, the fetus would have died as well. For this, she was automatically excommunicated. > > The other situation is decades (at least) of systematic coverup of pedophilia and rape on the part of priests. This coverup has destroyed the lives of many of the victims, and continues even to this day. The priests have had their lives and reputations protected by the Church. > > And yet, given these two situations, you’re arguing Canon law? You saw this thread, and attempted to portray it as nothing more than yet another opportunity for us to bash the Church?! Um… “excommunication” _is_ canon law. > [@](#): > > What the hell would it take for you to finally have enough? What if one of your children had been a victim? I know that if I were a Catholic, I’d be screaming for those responsible to be held accountable. I normally have a good amount of respect for you- we disagree, and I think you hold the letter of the law to be more important than the intent, but for the most part, you seem to be honorable. > > This, though… this is not honorable. If you didn’t approve of the Catholic bashing you knew was going to occur in this thread, you could’ve just ignored the thread. Instead, you popped in to threadshit. Well, in doing so, you’ve tacitly approved of the nun’s excommunication for saving a life, and you’ve also just voiced your approval for child rape and the covering up of that rape. Don’t forget my approval of Idi Amin’s regime, shown so clearly when I said he wasn’t a cannibal. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/82 "2010-05-21T14:27:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I continue to believe that on a board supposedly devoted to fighting ignorance, factual claims should be challenged when they’re not true. Funny, not a word on “fighting ignorance” when you were directly asked whether you thought priests who molested children ought to be excommunicated. Not a word on “fighting ignorance” when you were challenged on whether children had free will to attend Catholic services. Not a word on “fighting ignorance” when it came to repeated coverups of molesting priests, and the question of whether _that_ fell under canon law. Not a word on “fighting ignorance” when it comes to the simple question of whether, since canon law is written by the same persons which it rules over, and the Catholic church essentially sits in judgment of itself, the whole edifice of canon law might be considered suspect. But, please, go on “fighting ignorance” against terminological inexactitudes. It’s so useful for derailing discussion about such minor matters like thousands of children being raped by priests. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/83 "2010-05-21T14:35:10Z")
Although I agree that canon law is relevant in the case of the excommunicated nun, I should note that canon law is (in this case) really, really fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/84 "2010-05-21T14:43:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Let’s not go there. Please? Why not? Don’t get me wrong- normally I loathe the “Won’t someone think of the children!!!” argument. However, it’s eminently appropriate in this situation. Children were the victims, and \*\*Bricker \*\*is a member of the Catholic church. Presumably, his children (if he has any) are occasionally in the care of Church officials. Would you feel better if I changed it to “What if it had happened to you?” ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/85 "2010-05-21T14:45:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Don’t forget my approval of Idi Amin’s regime, shown so clearly when I said he wasn’t a cannibal. I wasn’t aware that you were voluntarily a member (and supporter) of Idi Amin’s regime. You know, like you currently are of the Catholic church. Presumably you tithe, or donate money to the church. By doing so, you’re materially helping to cover up child molestation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/86 "2010-05-21T15:08:08Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Funny, not a word on “fighting ignorance” when you were directly asked whether you thought priests who molested children ought to be excommunicated. You probably missed this - > [@Bricker](#): > > I agree that canon law should impose a similar penalty for pedophile clerics who abuse. I don’t disagree with that point at all. In fact, I think canon law should go farther, and impose an automatic loss of the clerical state for a first offense. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/87 "2010-05-21T15:08:40Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Funny, not a word on “fighting ignorance” when you were directly asked whether you thought priests who molested children ought to be excommunicated. Hilarious: > [@Bricker](#): > > I agree that canon law should impose a similar penalty for pedophile clerics who abuse. I don’t disagree with that point at all. In fact, I think canon law should go farther, and impose an automatic loss of the clerical state for a first offense. It’s completely inconsistent to treat one crime so severely and fail to punish the other. What do you do, read the first six or seven words of posts and then stop? > [@Duke](#): > > Not a word on “fighting ignorance” when you were challenged on whether children had free will to attend Catholic services. Nope, not a word: > [@Bricker](#): > > As with many other aspects of society. Adults can choose to live in Arizona, that facist, racist state, or move. Children have no choices and must live where their guardians dictate. > [@Duke](#): > > Not a word on “fighting ignorance” when it came to repeated coverups of molesting priests, and the question of whether _that_ fell under canon law. Not one: > [@Bricker](#): > > I agree that canon law should impose a similar penalty for pedophile clerics who abuse. I don’t disagree with that point at all. In fact, I think canon law should go farther, and impose an automatic loss of the clerical state for a first offense. **It’s completely inconsistent to treat one crime so severely and fail to punish the other.** > [@Duke](#): > > Not a word on “fighting ignorance” when it comes to the simple question of whether, since canon law is written by the same persons which it rules over, and the Catholic church essentially sits in judgment of itself, the whole edifice of canon law might be considered suspect. Well, there, you got me. Of course, as I read the thread, I don’t really see where that point was raised. Did I miss it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/88 "2010-05-21T15:14:43Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > I wasn’t aware that you were voluntarily a member (and supporter) of Idi Amin’s regime. You know, like you currently are of the Catholic church. > > Presumably you tithe, or donate money to the church. By doing so, you’re materially helping to cover up child molestation. That’s not true. Is it your contention that the Church is NOW, today, trying to cover up current acts of child molestation? I don’t agree. The Church has in place now, today, policies that I believe are appropriate for dealing with the issue. So how is what I’m doing today “helping to cover up child molestation?” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/89 "2010-05-21T15:15:18Z")
Yes, you did, very early on and repeatedly. That’s a consequence of the Ignore feature - you can look even more foolish than you already do. But you can try to answer the question anyway: Why should anybody give any respect to this “canon law” shit you’re defending so passionately, far more passionately than you’re defending any of its victims, I might add? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/90 "2010-05-21T15:17:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Although I agree that canon law is relevant in the case of the excommunicated nun, I should note that canon law is (in this case) really, really fucking stupid. How do you feel about a cop automatically being placed on desk duty or administrative leave after a shooting, even in a case where his shooting saved a busload of special-needs kids from certain death at the hands of a knife-wielding murderer? ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_First_Time)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/91 "2010-05-21T15:24:35Z")
The last New Republic had a very good discussion of this, [http://www.tnr.com/article/forgive-not](http://www.tnr.com/article/forgive-not) written by a person who has studied the church for some time. I’m afraid you need to be a subscriber to read the entire thing. The author does a good job tracing the history of the church and how it got to be the way it is today. It ends with a reference to Matthew 25:40 "And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ " and concludes that the priests and church are raping Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/92 "2010-05-21T15:29:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do you feel about a cop automatically being placed on desk duty or administrative leave after a shooting, even in a case where his shooting saved a busload of special-needs kids from certain death at the hands of a knife-wielding murderer? Was he on duty? Then I oppose. How is this relevant? A potential rogue law enforcement officer arguably presents a threat to public safety. I fail to see what great harm might occur if a nun fails to follow an arbitrary rule that she must immediately be excommunicated. After all, your omniscient God already knows if what she did was kosher, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/93 "2010-05-21T15:37:53Z")
Bricker, You’re not stupid. I think I’m fairly safe in making that general statement. But I think that you’re trolling in this thread. I think you purposely post things a specific way that you KNOW will infuriate people and make them assume you believe one thing on an issue when it’s clear you don’t. You’re just doing it to rile people up. The OP was pretty much about two things. 1. The ongoing, systematic, widespread abuse of children all across the world as a result of pedophile priests and an organization that continues to protect them rather than excommunicate them 2. A comparison of that scenario against a nun who saved a life and then became excommunicated. Your response: > [@Bricker](#): > > If anyone has any interest in hearing the actual facts of canon law, please let me know. > > If the intent of this thread is the 34,651st Catholic bashing this year, please go right ahead. Again. You’re not stupid. You know this post said nothing and you were just itching for the followup. You’re like the guy who goes “sigh.” “Sigh.” “SIIIIIGHH.” “Man, I’ve had a rough day.” And we roll our eyes and finally go “What? What is it? What was your day like?” “Oh well if you really want to know…” Also, you knew that while this post would say nothing, that people would assume it to say so much more (everything from canon law addressing why pedophelia is ok to, I don’t know, that you supported pedophelia yourself) until you could jump right in with your laser scalpel and extract that one nugget you wished to argue against all else. So what happened when people finally took the bait as you knew they would? You explained how canon law creates an automatic excommunication for the nun and not that the hierarchy excommunicated her. And I’ll have to admit that this is something I didn’t know. I’m really not up on Catholic doctrine. You’ve fought my ignorance and genuinely pointed out a factual inaccuracy in the OP. Kudos to you. But if I need a textbook example of not seeing the forest for the trees, I’m going to look back to your first post in this thread. Remember the two main points in this thread? Yeah, your argument addresses neither of them. You knew that your point addressed neither of them. You’re like the Republican version of Aaron Sorkin in your argumental style. I don’t know quite how to explain it, but if you’ve ever seen how arguments and dialoges play out over the course of an episode of the West Wing, Studio 60, etc, you’d understand what I mean. You’re being willfully obtuse in this thread, gleefully arguing against a point that doesn’t address any substantive argument made, and hiding behind the shield of “fighting ignorance.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/94 "2010-05-21T15:40:52Z")
Hey, **Bricker**? You win. Put this one on your scoreboard too, you big ol’ hunk of Socratic brilliance, you. Now goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/95 "2010-05-21T15:42:26Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Wow…the Catholic church would have preferred that the woman die? I wonder how she felt when she read that. > > What a disgusting organization…and I used to give my money to those assholes. :mad: Is all organized religion this bad? Yep, and the un-organized as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/96 "2010-05-21T15:42:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Was he on duty? Then I oppose. How is this relevant? A potential rogue law enforcement officer arguably presents a threat to public safety. Fine, fine – you oppose. But I assume you wouldn’t argue that application of such a law is evil, or idiotic. After all, it’s clear that the law is intended to apply to a wide variety of situations, and rather than try to write in “…except in cases where it’s ultra-obvious that the cop was in the right…” and then be faced with arguing about just how ultra- we need to be, they impose a blanket requirement for review. You would perhaps do it differently, but can you really say it’s insane to do it that way? > [@](#): > > I fail to see what great harm might occur if a nun fails to follow an arbitrary rule that she must immediately be excommunicated. After all, your omniscient God already knows if what she did was kosher, yes? Yes, but like so many laws, it’s written to apply to the vast majority of situations. What great harm is it for a nun to receive the sacrament of penance? What great harm is the imposition of an automatic penalty until she receives that sacrament? ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/97 "2010-05-21T15:43:03Z")
What does excommunication mean in this case? That the Sister can’t teach or go about her usual nunlike duties until she explains herself to her confessor? If she dies before she has a chance to explain herself, will she go to Hell, even though God knows this particular abortion was justified? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/98 "2010-05-21T15:44:09Z")
Right. Because we, as Westerners, are SO incredibly unfamiliar with the Christian faith, that we need **Bricker** , the eternal apologist, to explain things to us. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/99 "2010-05-21T15:44:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, but like so many laws, it’s written to apply to the vast majority of situations. What part of “it ain’t a fucking\* law\*, it’s just some organization’s policy” don’t you get? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/100 "2010-05-21T15:46:24Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Wow…the Catholic church would have preferred that the woman die? IIRC, the official Church position is that two wrongs don’t make a right. You cannot murder one person to save the life of another–and they consider the termination of any pregnancy, even a single-celled zygote, to be murder. So, in the same way that if we are stranded on a liferaft in the middle of the ocean, I may not kill you and eat you in order to give myself more time to get to land, a woman may not abort a fetus that will kill her as it develops. Note: This is not reasoning I agree with. I’m just explaining how it works. > [@Bricker](#): > > And that penalty only exists until she explains the circumstances of that particular decision, which she can quite easily as covered by the principle of unintended secondary effect, under which the medical procedure is quite acceptable. Cite? It’s my understanding that abortion is never acceptable unless it’s the indirect result of another procedure. So, just an abortion is always wrong, regardless of whether or not the pregnancy would have killed the mother. However, in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, you may remove the fallopian tube, even if that has the result of killing the fetus, because the removal of the tube was the intent of the procedure, not the termination of the pregnancy. Side note: This appears to be the same kind of logic that says it’s okay to pull out before you ejaculate but not to just wear a condom. > [@TWDuke](#): > > How the fetus got into a Nazi uniform, I’ll never know. The pedo priests needed something to do with their hands while they were being trucked around from parish to parish. > [@Bricker](#): > > He’s mistaken, as far as literally ‘repent.’ But she does have to receive the sacrament of penance, which is “to confess” in ordinary lingo. But her confession does not have to include repentance, merely explanation. Again, I ask for a cite. That is directly contradictory to every understanding I have of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You may not be given absolution unless you genuinely repent of your sin. Saying you did it, you’re not sorry you did it, and you’d do it again would absolutely be grounds for a priest to refuse to absolve you. > [@Bricker](#): > > But because there are circumstances, like this one, where abortion is permissible under church law, there is a process to remove that automatic penalty. AFAIK, you’re wrong. There are \*no \*circumstances where an abortion qua an abortion is allowable under Church law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=6)