# Fuck the Motherfucking Pope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182 "2010-05-20T21:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/161 "2010-05-21T18:19:57Z")
So basically the Catholic church is governed by canon law and canon law sucks. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/162 "2010-05-21T18:20:51Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > No cite and a bit of a hijack, but my 7th-Day Adventist friend tells me that Islam and the Catholic Church are going to merge soon. > > That oughta be good for a few laughs. Sure, sharia law is probably more compassionate than canon law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/163 "2010-05-21T18:28:44Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You seem to be confused about what people are mad about here. > > People are not mad that a nun was excommunicated for misreading Church doctrine in such a way that she thought it was all right to allow a woman to have an abortion in the first trimester in order to save her own life. People are mad that the RCC specifically and explicitly disallows all abortions, including ones that would save the life of the mother, because they consider it less evil to let both the fetus and mother die than to actively kill the fetus so that the mother may live. If that’s the case, then they should continue to be mad, because that’s what we believe. It would be just as evil for me to kill you so that I might live. I thought there would be some value in clarifying the process by which latae sententiae excommunication works. To the extent that people are pissed off about the Church’s view on abortion, as a whole, obviously my posting doesn’t change that or address it in any way. > [@](#): > > Saying, “No, it’s okay, she won’t be excommunicated after all because she didn’t \*KNOW \*she was sinning when she allowed the abortion!” isn’t helping. At all. > > What do you think will happen if the nun says, “I recognize now that I misread the directive, but if I knew then what I know now, I still would have allowed it”? Nothing just now, because saying it, without more, will not subject her to any penal process in the Church. What her confessor says to her as a result of that statement is between her and her confessor. > [@](#): > > I can’t believe you’re couching excommunication as such a “not a big deal” thing. You are fucking cut off from the Sacraments. You can’t participate in the Eucharist. That should be a Big Fucking Deal for any Catholic, and if you don’t understand that, I must truly question whether you are one. It’s a huge deal. But if someone does not believe in the Real Presence, it’s hard for me to imagine that person caring about being cut off from the sacraments. So for that person, it’s not a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/164 "2010-05-21T18:31:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s a huge deal. But if someone does not believe in the Real Presence, it’s hard for me to imagine that person caring about being cut off from the sacraments. So for that person, it’s not a big deal. She’s a fucking nun, you idiot. I’m pretty sure she believes. Side note: She appears to be from the same order as my (late, as of last October) great aunt. Good for her. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/165 "2010-05-21T18:33:23Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > _performs 5 Hail Marys, 10 Hello Dollys_ Drop and give me three Lazy Susans! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/166 "2010-05-21T18:33:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that’s the case, then they should continue to be mad, because that’s what we believe. And nothing, nothing can make you consider the possibility that you just might be wrong, horribly wrong, can it? > [@](#): > > I thought there would be some value in clarifying the process by which latae sententiae excommunication works. Why? It’s just the procedure by which evil is performed and rationalized by your organization, not an explanation that it isn’t evil after all. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/167 "2010-05-21T18:34:40Z")
Further question for you, **Bricker** : From your posts here, it seems that prior to our discussion just now, you yourself were under the impression that abortion was allowed to save the life of a mother, and you were okay with that. Now it seems like you’re backtracking and saying that you agree 100% with the RCC line that all abortions are wrong, regardless. So, let’s say you’re the mother of the Brazilian girl I mentioned a few posts ago. You’re saying that you would let your daughter die as she attempts to carry to term the twins she conceived when your husband raped her? You’re okay with that? No problem? Lesser of two evils and all that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/168 "2010-05-21T18:35:42Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > So basically the Catholic church is governed by canon law and canon law sucks. Canon law has some flaws. Look, the U.S. and each of its states are governed by secular law. There are tow or three ongoing threads right now about Arizona’s law. Not one person posted there that “So, basically, Arizona is governed by secular law, created by the legislature, and that sucks!” Although probably there are a few that think it. In the interests of making a more useful statement, I would say that canon law should treat a few other crimes with the same gusto that they treat abortion. That doesn’t mean that the entire body of canon law sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/169 "2010-05-21T18:36:06Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > No cite and a bit of a hijack, but my 7th-Day Adventist friend tells me that Islam and the Catholic Church are going to merge soon. > > That oughta be good for a few laughs. Time for the perfect crime. The Muslims will blow up a bunch of people, and the Catholics will make sure nobody finds out. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/170 "2010-05-21T18:39:14Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > She’s a fucking nun, you idiot. I’m pretty sure she believes. > > Side note: She appears to be from the same order as my (late, as of last October) great aunt. Good for her. I was referring to **Unauthorized Cinnamon** when I said that “she” doesn’t believe, since **Unauthorized Cinnamon** was the one who had just posted the statement that she didn’t believe in, among other things, the Real Presence. For the nun, of course excommunication is a big deal, but in this case, when the lifting of that penalty is as close at hand as making a good confession, I don’t believe it’s fair to say it’s a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/171 "2010-05-21T18:40:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not one person posted there that “So, basically, Arizona is governed by secular law, created by the legislature, and that sucks!” Why should they? What you call “secular law” is just _law_. Created by We the People and our elected representatives. What you call “canon law” _is not law at all_. It’s a corporate policy manual, created and enforced by its own management, in an organization people are free to leave (and are doing so in droves). What don’t you understand about that? Or is that just more of your dishonest word-chopping Pharisaic crap? > [@](#): > > Although probably there are a few that think it. Why the hell would you think that? Because Dopers are notoriously reticent about saying what they think? Or perhaps because nobody is that silly here, your imagination notwithstanding? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/172 "2010-05-21T18:42:08Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Further question for you, **Bricker** : > > From your posts here, it seems that prior to our discussion just now, you yourself were under the impression that abortion was allowed to save the life of a mother, and you were okay with that. Now it seems like you’re backtracking and saying that you agree 100% with the RCC line that all abortions are wrong, regardless. Not quite. I wasn’t clear on precisely what was done, medically. I do not agree with the proposition that all abortions are wrong. In my view, when death of both mother and unborn child is virtually certain if nothing is done, it’s not wrong to perform even a direct abortion when the intent is to save the life of the only person that can be saved. I realize that my personal view is not in direct alignment with the Church’s teaching. > [@](#): > > So, let’s say you’re the mother of the Brazilian girl I mentioned a few posts ago. You’re saying that you would let your daughter die as she attempts to carry to term the twins she conceived when your husband raped her? You’re okay with that? No problem? Lesser of two evils and all that? Asked and answered. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/173 "2010-05-21T18:43:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I realize that my personal view is not in direct alignment with the Church’s teaching. How does excommunication feel to you? What do you expect eternal damnation to feel like? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/174 "2010-05-21T18:51:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The number is shrinking rapidly. And for good reason. That’s not at all relevant to my question. He said: > [@](#): > > Only to the extent that I, along with the other lay faithful, are part of the church. They are a part of the church. How significant a part? If the laity said, “Enough!” what happens? I think if the laity said that, the Church would immediately change. But the laity hasn’t said that, so I hold them responsible for what the RCC does in their name. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/175 "2010-05-21T18:54:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Canon law has some flaws. > > Look, the U.S. and each of its states are governed by secular law. There are tow or three ongoing threads right now about Arizona’s law. > > Not one person posted there that “So, basically, Arizona is governed by secular law, created by the legislature, and that sucks!” > > Although probably there are a few that think it. > > In the interests of making a more useful statement, I would say that canon law should treat a few other crimes with the same gusto that they treat abortion. > > That doesn’t mean that the entire body of canon law sucks. Some flaws? The Catholic church heirarchy argues that a woman should drop dead rather than having an abortion to save her life and that’s your idea of some flaws? And it’s not just that. Church officials are forever arguing that IVF is immoral, gay sex is immoral, condom use to prevent AIDS is immoral. Their whole philosphy on any issue surrounding human sexuality is unfailingly idiotic while being cloacked in a sort of over the top moral self righteousness that is offensive and absurd. I feel badly for the nun in question because I’m sure she’s a decent woman. But she’s governed by lunatics. I have to tell I’ve had very little respect for you on this issue at all after reading some sort of idiotic missive you wrote about all the efforts a woman needed to go through when she had an ectopic pregnancy. You went on and on and on about removing the fallopian tubes to protect the precious fertilized egg as if that should be our primary concern rather than making sure a woman with an ectopic pregnancy got the best care necessary to make sure her life or health wasn’t in danger. It was completely revolting. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/176 "2010-05-21T18:57:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > That’s not at all relevant to my question. He said: > > They are a part of the church. How significant a part? > > If the laity said, “Enough!” what happens? I think if the laity said that, the Church would immediately change. But the laity hasn’t said that, so I hold them responsible for what the RCC does in their name. Indeed? And you of course apply the same logic to the laws of the United States and each state, right? Even more so, I imagine, since we elect our leaders for definite terms in office - right? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/177 "2010-05-21T18:59:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > They are a part of the church. How significant a part? Not nearly as significant as they like to think, I’m sure. > [@](#): > > If the laity said, “Enough!” what happens? I think if the laity said that, the Church would immediately change. I doubt it very much. The church (no need to capitalize the word, there are thousands of churches) 1. does not change “immediately”, and 2. would respond only with statements of distress that the flock had refused to hear the Word but would always be welcomed back, etc. Nothing can make people who genuinely believe they were chosen by God and are acting on His will consider the possibility that they were themselves mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/178 "2010-05-21T19:03:01Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I have to tell I’ve had very little respect for you on this issue at all after reading some sort of idiotic missive you wrote about all the efforts a woman needed to go through when she had an ectopic pregnancy. You went on and on and on about removing the fallopian tubes to protect the precious fertilized egg as if that should be our primary concern rather than making sure a woman with an ectopic pregnancy got the best care necessary to make sure her life or health wasn’t in danger. > > It was completely revolting. I don’t know what missive you’re talking about Bricker writing, but that is the current teaching of the RCC. All things being equal (which they never are), if there were two methods of removing an ectopic pregnancy which both led to good outcomes for the woman and one had a little twist to it that made it more palatable to the RCC, that’d be hunky dory for me. The problem is that they are not equal. The one the RCC favors leads to demonstrably worse outcomes and, of course, none of the men making these rules ever has to worry about it. But women do. Married, non slutty women, do. Married, non slutty women who want to be pregnant do. And so they abide by the rules of the church and condemn themselves to higher risk from then on so that people with penises don’t call them sinners and write cute little rules that automate a punishment–so they don’t even have to think about it and sully their astonishingly clean hands. I don’t think I even need to point out who else had clean fucking hands. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/179 "2010-05-21T19:03:27Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I have to tell I’ve had very little respect for you on this issue at all after reading some sort of idiotic missive you wrote about all the efforts a woman needed to go through when she had an ectopic pregnancy. You went on and on and on about removing the fallopian tubes to protect the precious fertilized egg as if that should be our primary concern rather than making sure a woman with an ectopic pregnancy got the best care necessary to make sure her life or health wasn’t in danger. > > It was completely revolting. It’s not a precious fertilized egg. It’s a human being. A small, defenseless, human being. No, that poor defenseless unborn child shouldn’t get primary concern. But neither should he (or he) get secondary concern or no concern at all. There are two human patients involved. I’d hate to have you in charge of deciding the fate of conjoined twins. “Yeah, that one’s extra; kill it.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182/180 "2010-05-21T19:05:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Indeed? > > And you of course apply the same logic to the laws of the United States and each state, right? Even more so, I imagine, since we elect our leaders for definite terms in office - right? Yes. I am responsible for all of the atrocities the US has committed in my name, and everything done by the US is done in my name. Everything. That’s why it’s serious when a president lies and kills people, Bricker. That’s why it’s more than debate games and winning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-motherfucking-pope/540182.md?page=10)