Don’t you mean, “Stop using that Idi Amin analogy, because I really don’t have a way to counter it and it’s sounding uncomfortably like you have a point?”
As to (1)… you (not at all surprisingly, Officer McCzarcasm) miss the boat. It’s not “why aren’t you attaking them?” It’s “Don’t you see that this conduct was not unique, or even unusual, during this time period?”
But thank you for your concern. I know you’re rooting for me, and don’t want me to sound cheap and desperate.
Did they go to prison? IF they did, fine. If not, then why not? I don’t see any reason for ANY one of them to get a free pass, if they are guilty. It doesn’t matter what title they have, or what job, or what organization they are part of. Wh did it, and what percentage of who, means nothing, except that they should be in jail too.
And were they a part of a worldwide franchise that deliberately obstructed any attempts at accountability?
No, I pretty much meant exactly what I said, but if it would you you, I could stop speaking directly, and instead use the lame and off-topic analogy over and over again.
WTH is this–some kind of plea bargain for the Church? IF you find that your “research” does NOT favor the Church, it is indeed “ammunition” for more criticism of the Church. How could it not be? And your beloved Church deserves the criticism it is getting and more.
What you don’t seem to understand is this: it doesn’t matter if your parish did the right thing or if your findings completely support your premise of “ollie, ollie oxen free”. What matters is the betrayal of trust on the part of all in authority in the Church to not just Catholics, but everyone, everywhere. The Church is huge and global in scope–this evil has touched every country and continues to do so. And, as jsgoddess says, the many Iagos of the piece have been promoted or transferred elsewhere. They ALL have blood on their hands
You just don’t get it–I think because you don’t want to, but that’s another thread. Anyone in a Roman collar, any nun or monk who turned a blind eye, who assumed the best, rather than act on their fears of the worst, any member of the laity who shoved aside concerns or who put tradition above common sense–all of you are culpable. Your (individual you) idolatry of the Church is at the bottom of this, IMO. It’s sickening.
This has nothing to do with law. Get your head out of the courtroom. You aren’t preparing a brief here or trying to impress an old law professor. We are talking about systemic, chronic and pervasive sexual/emotional/psychological and physical abuse of children, Catholic children (if that descriptor is needed to make you WAKE the fuck up here); the same children who were taught to revere the Church and the “holy” fathers and mothers “superior” the world over.
We are not discussing youth camp counselors, swim team coaches, Boy Scout leaders, day care providers. That is one lousy defense. There is no defense for what the Church has done over the centuries (I’m going out on a wild limb here and going to assume that pedophilia is not a just 20th century societal problem). Funny how if I say in traffic court, “but speeding is pervasive and frequently done!” I don’t get out of the ticket.
The machinations of the Church to protect those who abused are horrifying, but not unexpected. It’s a long way to fall when for centuries you’ve insisted that your institution is The Real Thing, only to be found out that it is as far from that as Lucifer is from heaven.
And as bad as it must be to be Catholic right now, try to imagine it from a non-Catholic’s perspective. The Church has always kept other religions at arm’s length, sometimes contemptuously, sometimes only grudgingly allowing that another faith path is present on this earth. And for a long while-centuries- it got richer and more powerful and its influence spread throughout the world. It built great institutions of learning and acted for good in some truly dark places in the world. And like all empires, it survived schism and challenge and revolt. But again like all empires, what it cannot survive is the internal corruption of itself. Your Church has been slashed open and we can all see the rancid decay inside.
Do you honestly think that any non-Catholic is going to think of the Church in favorable terms now or in the near future? Why would anyone believe one word any Church authority has said about any of this? It’s more than a PR problem, for sure, but you’re delusional if you think that this can be tidied up by a few empty words by your Pope and printed out version of How We Act Now. Such deep and profound betrayal is not overcome by measures you have described.
I have a better idea. Get in on the prosecution of them and DO something about it. What about that swim coach over there? Help put him in jail, Mr Attorney. That Rabbi did it too? Help in his prosecution. Really. If it bugs you SO much, help to lock them up. Or at least vote for and support those District Attorneys and Sheriffs who DO go after them. At least that’s something. But yes, the “those guys did it too” doesn’t work.
Good grief, do you seriously not comprend the point being made here?
But the other side of the equation is what I wanted to nail down. If it reveals the Church HAS done this, then is that meaningful, or to be discarded as meaningless?
So that answers the question. If they did it, it’s meaningless, if they didn’t do it, it is more evidence of their perfidy? That doesn’t strike you as a tad one-sided?
It’s precisely on-topic. Someone accuses the Church of A, B, C, and D. I point out that D is untrue. And suddenyl I am deluged by people asking me how dare I defend the Church?
How about: because D isn’t a true accusation?
How much more on-point could the Idi Amin analogy be?
OK, at the risk of sounding like a smart ass, what IS the point? Plainly, simply, and without any fancy big words.
I don’t want to hear the “they did it too” argument. I don’t want to hear the “it’s too big to fix” excuse. I don’t want to hear the “church law required silence and so tied their hands”. I don’t want to hear about “addressing the problem”, when it only entailed threatening the victims if they ever said anything, and then transferred the offenders somewhere else to do it again. I DID read the various letters of “instruction” etc, and they all were very very concerned with the “good of the church”. That concern (and the “instructions”) said a LOT about vows of “perpetual silence” from the victims, and possible excommunication if they did say anything,and fuck nothing about what to ultimately do with the perps. Some of the people involved got caught - repeatedly and were simply moved around. So “the system” failed. I don’t want to hear how committed the higher ups are to correcting this, since the news has been loaded with their attempts to shift blame and attack their accusers - blaming it on the gays, even going so far as comparing the current public sentiment to the Nazi attacks against Jews (talk about twisting your face to say something fucked up). Failure. Epic Fail. What the FUCK.
Maybe I don’t get the point. Maybe I shouldn’t want to. Maybe I’d have to be really fucked up in the head to “get it”.
I thought you might be interested in finding out for your own sake.
Bricker, you were given quite a tough pennance by your priest, weren’t you? I usually get 10 minutes’ worth of praying when I go to Cpnfession (while the priest fucks children and beats a couple of gays of course) but you got this almost-entirely useless self-flagellation.
Don’t you recognise a good facts-are-not-important bashing?
Won’t you think of the children!!!???
No need for research. He’s already reassured us that this shit “certainly” doesn’t happen anymore.
Just think about this:
“Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
(Luke 18:15-17 ESV)
You’re lighting your own pyre there, Joan.
There is no evidence that he recognizes other modes even exist, much less that they can be far more appropriate.
Remember that his goal on this board, in every discussion on any topic, isn’t to fight ignorance, but merely to feel that he’s “won” - however much that takes narrowing or changing the topic. What hasn’t dawned on him yet is that there is no way to “win” defending child rapists, or even misogynists.
Don’t worry, I got a Ring of Fire Protection and I can cast Dowse Fire 15’ radius 5/day.
That’s peachy. Not sure how it will help you gain the glorious martyrdom you seem to want, but have fun anyway.
I have no reason to find the new RCC policies compelling until priests start getting defrocked at the first report of molestation.
You mean proven accussation, don’t you?
Or is it your general policy idea to punish people without trial or the presumption of innocence?
Why not? After all, we’re just learning that tactic from the tactics of the Vatican anyway.