There were moa. They were the original occupants, and they got eaten.
I don’t know what the Mughals or who-ate-who has to do with anything. People are proposing that countries would be better off with a system that overall was racist, exploitative, economically destructive and immoral. It doesn’t matter that people might have been engaged in barbaric acts before the Euros showed up. That just means that one bad system was replaced with another.
I mean, the USSR industrialized a good chuck of Eastern Europe and parts of Asia. It brought order. It greatly improved equality between the sexes. Why aren’t you neocolonialists advocating a Soviet-style system too? Everybody could probably squeeze out a good fifty years of order with a commie system. :rolleyes:
I find this behavior bizarre. You know, I’m a Hindu. If some says to me that the caste system is bad, I don’t sit there trying to argue in favor of it. I’m not out advocating that people should implement or re-implement a caste system. I just go, “Yes, it was wrong. Fortunately, caste discrimination was outlawed at Indian independence and great progress has been made over the years. There’s still work to do, however.” I don’t feel the need to defend the caste system and extol its virtues.
I’m sick of random English fucks telling me how great colonialism was. It was a bad system–both economically and morally. I’m sick of people trying to defend colonialism by pointing out other bad systems. What the Europeans did during the Colonial period was wrong. People who want nostalgic days of Empire should go watch a freaking production of HMS Pinafore and leave the rest of the world alone.
Oh, and if you neocolonialists are so interested in helping out the poor countries, why don’t you advocate changing the EU to allow non-European members?
Moa are birds, and there were still some there when the first Europeans arrived 700-odd years later. There were no people in New Zealand when the Maori got there.
I don’t see how the hell else they are going to benefit from it, if it isn’t imposed. Wishing for one is wishing for the other.
Iraq isn’t quite yest a colonising effort, any more than Germany was colonised after WWII. Now, if the US set up operations to pump Iraqui oil and ship it back home, you could make the comparison.
Oh, so you were just making a general observation, now? It seems your bicycle really does only go in reverse.
…and lots of Native Americans were killed by other Native Americans, armed with guns and horses, not directly. I knew this, but chose the Moriori as a people who had been nearly completely wiped out as a result of colonialism, in parallel with the NA and Aussie examples. Ultimately, I still blame the colonials - who *chartered them a boat *so they could go and kill and eat the pacifist locals.
Because they’re apples and oranges. Communism is a system in which the Government says you’re not allowed to own anything, spies on you, and shoots you if you try to leave, whereas Colonialism changes the name on the letterhead and the “Ship To” location on cargo manifests, by and large. *
You might if you were a Kshatriya or a Brahmin, though. (That’s a generic you, not you specifically, BrightNShiny)
Well, if it wasn’t for Colonialism, a sizeable percentage of the world wouldn’t be here today and we’d probably still be living in whatever village our ancestors had lived in for millenia, farming Turnips and avoiding The Inquisition, the Golden Horde, and The Plague.
Colonialism worked out brilliantly for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the USA, most of the Caribbean, and most of the Pacific, too. It didn’t work out all that well in Africa, but that’s only because instead of fixing the system, the Europeans cleared off without sorting things out first.
Besides, you’re making it sound like the British Army went around bayoneting puppies, setting fire to kittens, and dismembering teddy bears, which is just as bad as pretending that the British Army could do no wrong. I’m not pretending that Colonialism was all G&Ts on the Verandah and a spot of Cricket after Safari, Tally-Ho!, but I’m saying I don’t think it’s nearly as evil as a lot of people like to try and make it out to be, IMHO.
As for the EU- well, I’d be all for Australia joining it. At least then I’d be free to wander around Europe as I saw fit without having to bother with Visas or anything like that… but I’ve expressed my views on immigration controls before, and this thread isn’t the place to reiterate them.
There’s a school of thought that says that it would have happened eventually anyway- the Moriori had migrated to the Chathams from the Mainland, so it was only a matter of time before the Maori ended up out there anyway. Sure, the Europeans selling them guns and chartering them sailing ships probably Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time, but I think it only meant the inevitable happened sooner rather than later.
*I’m aware that this is a gross oversimplification, incidentally
Not all sub-Saharan countries are basket cases. Botswana and Namibia are two well adjusted, well run countries that spring to mind. In fact, Botswana’s currency is stronger than South Africa’s.
Haven’t you been paying attention ? We completely twisted their economy and laws to conform to neocon ideology and benefit us.
That sounds very colonialist to me.
Yes, it’s much easier to set up a new culture if you kill almost everyone and destroy the culture of the few survivors. :rolleyes:
No, they were too busy slaughtering and terrorizing the people they conquered to kill off the local pets.
Are you sure ?
That is not what I’ve believed for a long time, probably 32 years when told it by a Kiwi friend. I think I need to check that out - thanks.
You’ve been whooshed by this Kiwi, mate. I’m gonna need a pretty hefty cite that moa were still extant by the time Cook arrived, though, a few jokers on the West Coast notwithstanding: most recent studies indicate that New Zealand extinctions were quicker than previously thought, and the moa only lasted at the most a couple of centuries after the first Polynesians arrived.
On preview, FDRE, you may have heard the old notion that the Moriori were pre-Maori Polynesian settlers: this has been effectively debunked, as you’ll note if you check the link I provided earlier.
Absolutely positive. I can assure you that there were no people in New Zealand before the Maori arrived. Wikipedia Agrees.
The whole “The Maori ate the original inhabitants!” thing was popular briefly back in the '70s thanks to some incorrect carbon dating/archaeological interpretation and as a kind of counter-point to Maori complaining about the Treaty of Waitangi:
“You stole our land!”
“Yeah? Well, You stole it from the original inhabitants and ate them!”
“Touché, Pakeha.”
It’s subsequently been established that the Maori got there first- but the British remembered to bring firearms, as the joke went. (Fun fact: The Maori were surprisingly keen on guns once they acquired them, which gave the British a nasty surprise when they discovered that the Maori were rather competent with muskets and were well aware of how to use them to maximum effect.)
No hard cites for Moa still being around when Cook arrived- it’s the sort of thing I remember reading in textbooks in school when I was a kid. Then again, the sort of textbooks they gave us to read when I was in primary school had often been written in the '50s and '60s- all the men in the illustrations wore hats and suits, all the women stayed at home and did the cooking, and the kids thought that a yacht or a colourful ball was the most entertaining and wholesome thing on Earth. The children were named usually Janet and John, or something else wholesomely 1950s Anglo-Saxon.
Ah, I see from Wikipedia that I’m not completely mad: Janet and John
Incidentally, I met those jokers from the West Coast you’re referring to, and I believe them when they say they saw what they saw. I’m not going to get into the whole “Are Moa Extinct?” debate here, but I am going to say it wouldn’t surprise me if there were a few left. Unlikely, admittedly, but not outside the realms of possibility.
Well we Euros did not do so badly from the Roman conquest
- cue 'Life of Brian - what have the Romans done for us ?
When have I ever said that we should not have assisted the USSR in Afghanistan - something I believed in 1979 and believe today.
The British did not like the caste system
When I was at Uni I had a very good friend who was from Bombay, dead smart, and is now one of the most influential people in India. He told me that the British (or European) version of Indian history was not exactly the same as the one that Indians believe. I should really have picked his brains a bit more, but at the time current affairs (Iran, UK, Afghanistan) were unfolding.
I think you probably have a seriously biased view, and suggest that you consider, just consider, that the truth is half way in between.
Since this is the Pit - I might as well be rude - Fuck you, you racist son of caste ridden slave owners - and may your balls shrivel and your offspring despise you as a fool that cannot operate a 3D games console.
Hmm… I quite like this - I might start a thread on written abuse. 
Yo Der Trihs, either MrDibble or Martini’s gonna be pissed. I think you’ve misattributed some of the posts.
I ain’t pissed,** Der**'s just fucked up the multi-quoting, no biggie. And Der, as to Iraq, I did say “isn’t quite [yet]”. I think it’s a very,very small step away, but that’s IMO.
“Gross oversimplification” is a total fucking undertatement. How about “Giant festering worm-ridden pile of horse-shit!” instead? Colonialism kills, it doesn’t just rearrange the furniture.
Fuck, I can’t believe someone from a country that used to have bounties on the native population has the fucking gall to suggest that colonialism was just an admin issue. You really are a stupid cunt, you know that?
A very interesting point.
After WWII the USA and the USA shipped in a vast number of German speakers.
Partly to run things directly, partly to locate and grab the Werner Von Braun’s, partly to separate the sheep from the goats and give the goats Persilscheins to help in administration.
The history of Volkswagen might be interesting (a British officer got fanatical about getting it into production) - also the BSA Bantam (which was nicked from Germany) and the classic theft was the Abwehr which the USA used to structure the CIA.
Probably Germany was an example of ‘colonialism lite’ - nick the talent, organize the natives and keep the place running.
Since this is the Pit - Fuck you - may your plastic cards shrivel, their tracks get wiped by a magnet and your Zinfandel be polluted with anti freeze by an over enthusiatic Austrian (I could add may your fridge inadvertantly turn to zero and your ADSL goes AWOL - but that would be cruel)
And I had really hoped that it would have been possible to at least maintain a modicum of decorum in this discussion, Pit or otherwise. There’s no need to resort to name-calling.
Never mind the why and wherefore.
WTF? Even with your gross-simplification qualification, this is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read.
[QUOTE]
You might if you were a Kshatriya or a Brahmin, though. (That’s a generic you, not you specifically, BrightNShiny)
Wha…? You mean… people who benefitted under a system might continue to advocate for it even it’s an immoral and destructive system? But I think you’ve proven my point. The people who advocate for Colonialism are no better than people who would advocate for a return to the caste system.
And no, I wouldn’t advocate a return to the caste system regardless of my caste.
The world wouldn’t be here? Would it have been sucked into a black hole?
My god, you’re an idiot. The reason we don’t have an Inquisition is because of the Renaissance and the Protestant Reformation. The reason we aren’t fighting the Golden Horde is because the Russians restablished themselves. The reason we’re not farming Tulips is because of the industrial revolution. And the reason we’re not plague victims is because of the development of the scientific method. All of these things could and did happen outside the context of Colonialism. But feel free to explain how Colonialism caused Martin Luther to post his theses.
You’re an idiot. They had different rules in different colonies. They had different rules for non-white than for whites. This is so basic to a knowledge of Colonial history, that it’s clear you no diddly-squat about the subject. Telling me that Australia turned out ok has nothing to do with African Colonialism. I’ve already posted this once in this thread.
Right. The people who developed a system designed to impoverish people should be the ones to fix it.
I didn’t make it sound like the British Army was setting fire to kittens. I said the Colonialism was devastating economically to many countries. I said that it’s an immoral system. I never mentioned the British Army. But really, the British Army didn’t exactly behave saintly in the Colonies.
A system which stagnates economic development and prevents industrialization and economic diversification is evil. A system which discriminates against non-whites against whites is evil. A system which disrupts traditional food supplies and delivery mechanisms while failing to deliver an alternate replacement system is evil.
But of course you don’t think it’s evil. Apologists for immoral systems never think those systems are evil.
Why don’t you start an EU like system for Australia and let the Gambians join then. They can get equal votes on policies, free trade, and immigration benefits.
Then why are you advocating colonialism instead of communism for African countries?
Way to miss my fucking point douchebag.
I’m not going to consider anything from you, asshole, until you stop posting speculation and post a fucking cite for your assertions. You have a lot of nerve telling people what things are when all you do is speculate on what might have been.
Well, it is the pit. I prefer having these debates in GD, but when in Rome…
Fuck that - we can give them more than they can
- if the goat fucking morons that cannot listen to a different view of the past are not polite enough to listen to us in GD, then I’m happy inventing Arabic curses - also suggesting that they are the by blows of transient British soldiers.
You sons of whores - on a good day I would drink a beer with you
- but today it looks like you are arseholes, so consider my knee and your jaw are in intimate contact - and yes I remember … or is it instinct.
This is the Pit - to my knowledge anything is allowed
First prize to anyone who knows what ‘Havoc’ means - and why it is not a good idea.
Well Ladies - get on with your knitting