# Fuck the Plymouth Rock vandal(s) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 18, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099 "2020-02-18T02:25:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/41 "2020-02-21T16:53:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Just because someone mentions something bad that some white people did in the past does not mean they are attacking white people. > > Surely you’ve heard it said that white people should not feel guilty about what other white people did in the past. That we should not feel like those bad guys are “us.” Well, the same logic works in this case. Why should I feel like saying that these white people in the past did something bad is a slight on me as a white person? Should I feel affinity towards them because of the color of my skin? > > No, the only reason to feel that way is if I thought the speaker was racist towards white people–if I thought the reason for bringing up bad things some white people did in the past was to say something bad about all white people. But this is an unlikely case. I don’t know about **mistymage** , but most of the people saying the things she said are white people themselves. And there is no other sign that they are racist towards white people, as they have white friends, white loved ones, and otherwise treat white people as equals. > > Yes, the smallpox story is inaccurate. And I have no problem with people debunking it. But you aren’t merely debunking it. You’re using it as part of a narrative of people attacking “White America.” You assume the motives are that some people hate “White Americans.” But it’s not. The reason the idea of the smallpox blankets caught on is due to the science of memetics. In short, it’s because it encapsulates a couple true ideas: (1) that the European colonists greatly mistreated Native Americans, conquering them rather than just making their own settlements. And (2) that a lot of the killing was not through warfare but disease, which allowed for easy conquest. The story did not spread because people hated “White America”–hell, it was white people who spread it, for centuries now. > > Thing is, this says nothing about what **mistymage** said, which is that the celebration of Plymouth Rock is celebrating some colonists who did a lot of shitty things to the native peoples. And your attempt at a rebuttal not only doesn’t say she’s wrong, but it leaves out something important. **Those Native Americans only did that because they were fighting back against the invaders.** Sure, we may object to their tactics today, but there is a material difference between the conquerors who come in and take from others and the conquered who attempt to stop them. > > But, again, this doesn’t attack you or me as a white person. The whole “White America” concept is poor at best. It creates this narrative of a common white people in America. But that doesn’t exist. The people considered white back then aren’t the same as now. The Irish, Italians, Greeks, Slavic peoples, Russians, etc were not considered white. And our skin color didn’t change. It’s just that “white” is the term for everyone who gets accepted as part of the majority in certain nations. It’s why there’s a debate on whether Jewish people count as white. It’s why light skinned Hispanic people are often not considered white. > > The whole concept is one that lends itself to “white grievance politics,” the idea that white people face some level of widespread persecution for being white. But we don’t. People tend to feel that way because non-white people are being more accepted, and that feels like something is being taken away. But it isn’t. > > Or, a more sympathetic issue, is that the working class in America are feeling persecution, and the white people are mistaking that as persecution for being white, rather than because we/they’re poor. And it doesn’t help that both major political parties are paying attention to corporate interests. For the Democrats, that means that our message for the working class has been stomped out, leaving minority issues in the front. I can understand why that may lead people to think that the Democrats only care about non-white people. > > And, for that reason, I can see deemphasizing some of this stuff temporarily to help. But that’s different from treating it as a legitimate grievance. Saying that we should consider the history of the things we celebrate is not a bad thing. It is not an attack. > > I hope this all makes sense. I started out upset that you could even believe the “white grievance” crap, but wound up sort agreeing with you that maybe we focus on it too much. But, at the same time, I do want you to explore why you feel that “White America” is being attacked. Why do you buy into that narrative? > > Because that narrative is the one that the white nationalist exploit. A “White America” suggest that there is a white nation (common group of people) inside of America with their own grievances and issues. It gives them a foothold to start pushing the idea that it is those outside of “White America” that are the problem. > > I do not want to further that narrative. I didn’t edit anything out of quoting you because I agree with everything you say. My point was exactly that we of a progressive mindset in an effort to be inclusive DO tend to “focus” on past wrongs too much. We can do nothing to remedy the horrible realities of the past. Surely I have heard it said that white people should not feel guilty about what other white people did in the past? No, I haven’t heard that disclaimer at all. All I hear is an endless litany of abuses that those Caucasian ancestors have done, and that’s all the Trump supporters hear as well. Poverty IS the problem. Poverty IS worse for minorities, I understand that. But to attack the problem of poverty, we have to get ALL the impoverished, including impoverished Caucasians on our side. We aren’t going to do that by telling them repeatedly that their ancestors were assholes. We have to focus righteous anger, minority AND working class white anger against the billionaire class that has created this unholy mess of a society where people have to work two and three jobs just to make the rent, or where people have to ration their insulin, or decide if it’s medicine or food this month. ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/42 "2020-02-22T08:12:10Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > And meanwhile, Native Americans were raiding settlements for slaves, murdering children and Abe Lincoln’s grandfather, stampeding buffalo herds off cliffs, and introducing tobacco, while bearing a history of ritual human sacrifice. What’s your point? Uh… how many settlements were there back in the Plymouth Rock days? One of the reasons the Plymouth Rock settlers were so happy when they stepped on the continent was all those fields ready to be planted… because those Peoples had died off from diseases that Europeans shrugged off or had facial scarring from (other scars being hidden under clothes.) Ritual human sacrifice: South America. Stampeding bison (not buffalo) over cliffs: they used all of the meat, hides and bones. Trying to kill off Plains NA? Shooting, killing and just taking the fur… those train ride “expeditions.” [https://allaboutbison.com/bison-in-history/](https://allaboutbison.com/bison-in-history/) Ooooh… I’m done this early morning… drank _lot_. In celebration as my Band was vindicated at State level against a County trying to say our Reservation… wasn’t. The State said we were and are… and as I post this… it affirms our 165th year anniversary of our Treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/43 "2020-02-22T14:16:17Z")
> [@mistymage](#): > > Uh… how many settlements were there back in the Plymouth Rock days? > > One of the reasons the Plymouth Rock settlers were so happy when they stepped on the continent was all those fields ready to be planted… because those Peoples had died off from diseases that Europeans shrugged off or had facial scarring from (other scars being hidden under clothes.) > > Ritual human sacrifice: South America. > > In celebration as my Band was vindicated at State level against a County trying to say our Reservation… wasn’t. The State said we were and are… and as I post this… it affirms our 165th year anniversary of our Treaty. Congrats on being vindicated. By the way, Native Americans raided each other’s settlements for slaves all the time before whites came along. Ritual human sacrifice? North America. Mexico. In South America, the Inca would uproot whole tribes they conquered, and relocate them to make sure rival alliances couldn’t be formed. Sort of like Russia and the Baltic States. I know they’re bison, but nobody calls them that. It’s not Bison, NY. Nobody eats bison wings. Sorry about the smallpox. Thanks for the syphilis though. And what do you call one white man surrounded by a dozen Native Americans? A bartender. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/44 "2020-02-22T15:12:07Z")
Whoa… Going full on racist and pulling the “white men are treated unfairly” card is a fucking lunatic look. Maybe step away from they keyboard for a few days and reconsider your life choices. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/45 "2020-02-22T16:39:01Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Whoa… > > Going full on racist and pulling the “white men are treated unfairly” card is a fucking lunatic look. Maybe step away from they keyboard for a few days and reconsider your life choices. Nowhere did I say white men are being treated unfairly. I’m saying that focusing anger on what evils the white men have wrought in the history of the world is not going to advance the progressive cause. It’s only benefiting the billionaire class because it’s pissing off the impoverished white working class. I know the bartender joke is racist, but I’m not the one bragging about drinking. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/46 "2020-02-22T16:46:21Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > And meanwhile, Native Americans were raiding settlements for slaves, … > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > My point is nobody is innocent. … > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > And what do you call one white man surrounded by a dozen Native Americans? A bartender. This is full-blown white supremacism and racism. I started composing responses, but this kind of garbage is not worth the effort. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/47 "2020-02-22T17:23:12Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > I know the bartender joke is racist, but I’m not the one bragging about drinking. If you aren’t racist, then don’t tell racist jokes. Because, like I said, what you were arguing was the shit that racists argue–that White America is under attack because we say some white people in the past did bad things. That already put you on the fence. Throw in a racist joke, and you only lead people to think you’re racist. And then they have no reason to listen to you. Note, I did not call you racist. I pointed out that you are coming off as a racist, and might want to reconsider your tactics. And that, in general, you should not tell racist jokes. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/48 "2020-02-22T18:02:04Z")
Yeah, I don’t give any fucks if you don’t consider yourself racist. Once you start in with the outright racist jokes, whether you are a racist or just making racist jokes is a distinction without any difference. It’s 2020, not 1920. Hell, it’s not even 1990 when you still might have been able to get away with that shit. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/49 "2020-02-22T18:13:11Z")
Do you want Republicans in power forever? Because that’s what’s going to happen if we keep hammering on the evils of the past. And for fuck’s sake, quit pretending you have never had a fleeting racist thought. Quit acting like a vague racist perception makes the person holding it a war criminal. Quit thought policing everybody. Racism isn’t kryptonite. Fight racism, yes. But don’t be holier than thou about it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/50 "2020-02-22T18:25:34Z")
So…about those vandals? Any updates? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/51 "2020-02-22T18:33:50Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you want Republicans in power forever? Because that’s what’s going to happen if we keep hammering on the evils of the past. > > And for fuck’s sake, quit pretending you have never had a fleeting racist thought. Quit acting like a vague racist perception makes the person holding it a war criminal. Quit thought policing everybody. Racism isn’t kryptonite. Fight racism, yes. But don’t be holier than thou about it. Part of fighting racism is not posting racist jokes. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/52 "2020-02-22T19:03:58Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Part of fighting racism is not posting racist jokes. You’re not going to take away my “F Troop” reruns. Yeah. The joke was racist. I was so naughty. And yet, the world goes on. I’m against racism, but I like to laugh. I despise sexism. But I laugh at “Family Guy”. Get a grip. Lighten up. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/53 "2020-02-22T19:43:56Z")
The whole “nobody’s innocent” and “stop getting on white people’s case when natives did bad things too” is one of the main arguments used by white supremacist. So you’re not only telling racist jokes, you’re mainlining a white supremacist tactic. And there’s a huge difference between “having a fleeting racist thought” and posting a hateful stereotyping racist joke. Your entire political argument is “let the racists be comfortable with their racism.” There are no non-racists voting Republican because of “liberals harping on the past.” They’re all full-clown racists who were just waiting or someone to give them an excuse to let their racist instincts fly. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/54 "2020-02-22T20:07:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The whole “nobody’s innocent” and “stop getting on white people’s case when natives did bad things too” is one of the main arguments used by white supremacist. So you’re not only telling racist jokes, you’re mainlining a white supremacist tactic. > > And there’s a huge difference between “having a fleeting racist thought” and posting a hateful stereotyping racist joke. > > Your entire political argument is “let the racists be comfortable with their racism.” > > There are no non-racists voting Republican because of “liberals harping on the past.” They’re all full-clown racists who were just waiting or someone to give them an excuse to let their racist instincts fly. Tactics are tactics. They’re used by any side. I’ll let racists be racists if they’ll vote a socialist Jew into the White House. I said the joke was racist, and I said I was naughty to post it. Are you going to flag the Mods to ban me now? After all, actions have consequences, and we know what happens to those who diverge from leftist thought. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/55 "2020-02-22T20:10:09Z")
You’re not worth the time. Plonk. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/56 "2020-02-22T20:34:42Z")
Yeah, fuck it. If fighting fascists means siding with racists, then what the fuck does it matter that Republicans win? They’ve already won either way. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/57 "2020-02-22T20:39:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You’re not worth the time. Plonk. Oh well. Back to the unattainable socialist utopia. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/58 "2020-02-22T20:41:48Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Yeah, fuck it. If fighting fascists means siding with racists, then what the fuck does it matter that Republicans win? They’ve already won either way. It sucks that we all think differently. As Guin said, any updates on the vandalism? ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/59 "2020-02-22T22:55:04Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you want Republicans in power forever? Because that’s what’s going to happen if we keep hammering on the evils of the past. > > And for fuck’s sake, quit pretending you have never had a fleeting racist thought. Quit acting like a vague racist perception makes the person holding it a war criminal. Quit thought policing everybody. Racism isn’t kryptonite. Fight racism, yes. But don’t be holier than thou about it. I can’t say I’ve never had a racist thought, but I’m not some asshole who posts racist jokes on a message board and then doubles down on it. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099/60 "2020-02-22T22:58:08Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > They could have just covered it with paper. 😃 Easy to clean up. Just need scissors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-plymouth-rock-vandal-s/848099.md?page=4)