# Fuck The RIAA **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365 "2003-04-08T19:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/21 "2003-04-10T00:38:30Z")
It’s only “market price” if there’s competition, and there’s just not. BTW, CDs do not cost the same all over. Same with DVDs. What people in the US pay, we in Canada pay in CDN, which is still too much IMHO. True, making a decent CD costs more than 1$. But not much more. Less than 2$ as a WAG. Everything else is pure markup by a company with less scruples than Microsoft. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/22 "2003-04-10T00:40:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Payton’s Servant \* > \*\*If you have the money to buy a computer and all of the hoo-ha that goes with it, then you certainly have $20 to buy a CD, so shut your pieholes. > > Bunch of self-centered, self-absorbed yaboos, the lot of ya. \*\* Shut your piehole yourself, or get with the program. I can “afford” to pay $10 for a cup of coffee too, that doesn’t make it right. The music industry has brought many of its current problems upon itself and it wants every consumer, whether they even listen to music or not, to pay for it. I have a real problem if I am _possibly_ going to have to pay $1.00 for a single blank CDR because the poor, hard done by music industry is losing money to all them nasty music pirates, 'cause thats where the blank CDs and other recordable media go to, you know. Not for things like, oh, backing up data. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/23 "2003-04-10T01:52:13Z")
The 4 Holy Grails of music success (ie popularity and market sales) are as follows… (1) Creativity and Artistry (2) Production and Recording (3) Marketing and Awareness (4) Distribution of product I’ve written this before in the past, but it still bears the test of time. Points (1) and (2) can now be paid for and funded by the Artist quite reasonably. A good engineer and producer can easily produce a Grammy winning quality product from beginning to end for lest than $25,000 US. Of course, the onus is still on the Artist to be creative and talented. But certainly, no longer can an established Record House hold the “costs of production” as a means of black mail over the Artist any longer. Point (4) is the grey area. Broadband internet is allowing larger and faster file downloads - but beware - a true 5 minute “WAVE FILE” which is genuine 44khz/16-bit Redbook standard is 80MB in size. Hence, the existing business model of pre-printed CD’s and liner notes and Record Shops has a way to go yet. Point (3) is the most interesting one of the lot, for mine. This is where the existing major Record Houses are deeply, DEEPLY in bed with sweetheart contra deals with Radio Networks such as Clear Channel Communications. I used to have to figures somewhere, but I’ve lost them sadly. Nonetheless, I’m very, VERY sure that the RIAA (collectively) forks out well over $3 Billion per annum in the USA alone to pay for new releases to get on air. Apparently, commercial radio remains the single most influential medium for making a hit song. MTV et al are experts at creating a hit “image”, but radio remains king for making a “hit song”. Historically, the golden era for DJ’s across the USA was the late 60’s thru to the early 80’s. Songs like Maggie Mae by Rod Stewart were b-sides and would never have become hits unless DJ’s across the land had the ability to choose a percentage of their playlists. Sadly, however, the arrival of corporate behemoths such as Clear Channel have gobbled up the right of DJ’s to screen music on a qualitative basis, and modern playlists are now designed to “scare off” as few listeners as possible by playing it safe all the time - and this in turn keeps advertisers happy you see. All in all, the music business has descended into an incestuous relationship built entirely around balance sheets and demographic exploitation. Bloody shame if you ask me. The real issue is not the RIAA, but rather, how to fix commercial radio throughout most of the Western World so that DJ’s have freedom of choice once again. There is no WAY that the plethora of “average talent” we see nowadays would become anywhere near as successful if DJ’s were allowed to choose say, 50% of their playlists. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/24 "2003-04-10T02:31:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **Point (4) is the grey area. Broadband internet is allowing larger and faster file downloads - but beware - a true 5 minute “WAVE FILE” which is genuine 44khz/16-bit Redbook standard is 80MB in size. Hence, the existing business model of pre-printed CD’s and liner notes and Record Shops has a way to go yet.** Your numbers are off. Your five minute song would be 50MB. 800MB per CD divided by 80 minutes equals 10MB per minute. My DSL connection maxes out at 159KB/s (~1.3Mbps), so it would take me a little over five minutes to download that track. That’s hardly an unreasonable amount of time to wait. Plus, with lossless compression you can reduce the files to about 2/3 of their original size. So that five minutes would be more like three and a half. Hell, you could _stream_ CD quality audio this way! ---
**Author:** ![Payton\_s\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3da27b/32.png) [@Payton\_s\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Payton_s_Servant)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/25 "2003-04-10T02:43:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bernse \* > **Shut your piehole yourself, or get with the program. I can “afford” to pay $10 for a cup of coffee too, that doesn’t make it right. The music industry has brought many of its current problems upon itself and it wants every consumer, whether they even listen to music or not, to pay for it.** If _getting with the program_ involves illegally downloading music, which you seem to approve of, then forget it. Exactly how is the music industry going to make _every consumer, whether they listen to music or not, to pay for it?_ That’s one of the most illogical statements I’ve seen in a good three weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Zenham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a5b964/32.png) [@Zenham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenham)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/26 "2003-04-10T04:24:27Z")
The music industry is only the most prominent in the current “all the market will bear” marketing mentality that corporations thrive on. They aren’t performing a service, they exist solely to make as much money, hand over fist, as possible. Why are you so surprised they’d rob you blind and fuck your naked corpse? ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/27 "2003-04-10T05:14:57Z")
[Fuck the RIAA up the ass with a rusty spoon](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22370-2003Apr3.html). ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/28 "2003-04-10T06:16:52Z")
World Eater, there are plenty of indie labels which sell their CDs for far below $20 ([Fat Wreck Chords](http://www.fatwreck.com/), for example, sells full-length albums for $10), and not only pull a profit but do well enough to support their artists. The products they produce are of approximately equal (and oftentimes higher) quality to the stuff that the major labels churn out. Point by point… The disc, case & manufacturing - Covered. Manufacturing costs aren’t really that high… especially since part of the original purpose of the CD format was to reduce manufacturing costs anyway- CDs are significantly cheaper to make than records or cassette tapes. Color printing and insleeve - Also covered. I purchased a Brave Saint Saturn album (on Tooth & Nail Records) for $12 a few days ago, and its album insert was certainly better than, say, any Weezer (on Geffen) album in the last decade. Professional artwork, design, printing, the works. Distribution - There are many indie labels with international distribution, including (but hardly limited to) the aforementioned Tooth & Nail, Fat Wreck, Five Minute Walk, Fueled By Ramen, etc. Many of these labels also provide shipping speed and rates comparable to Amazon or [BN.com](http://BN.com) for web-based orders. Entertainment lawyers - Don’t know about this one way or another, but the indie labels whose music I tend to patronize don’t seem to have much legal trouble to worry about. A&R - At the average indie label, “A&R staff” tends to equate “whoever runs the other stuff as well.” I recognize that this isn’t possible for a business the size of Sony Music, but then, it’s not as if Sony Music’s A&R is seriously tapping the reservoir of today’s musical geniuses… Producers - See points on manufacturing, distribution, etc. Also, with the advent of high-speed computer processing, the recording/ mixing/ mastering process is far cheaper than it used to be. There is studio-quality music being released for free all over the internet (check out some of the non-techno stuff over at [OC Remix](http://remix.overclocked.org/index.php) sometime… I suggest Estradasphere’s [wonderful jazzy interpretation of the Super Mario Bros. 2 theme](http://remix.overclocked.org/detailmix.php?mixid=OCR00577) as a good starting point). Artist Royalties - Again, it’s quite possible to support your artists without selling albums at $20 a pop. In addition, the royalty rates for artists are insanely low on the major labels… there has been more than one case of a major act going bankrupt because their label was bleeding them clean (M.C. Hammer, anyone?). It’s not exactly “supporting” an artist when the vast, vast majority of the profit goes straight to the record company’s coffers, is it? Therefore, the only real disadvantage of small labels is their inability to advertise as effectively as the majors. And that appears to me to be more of a problem with how the music industry works than an example of why major labels are correct in their practices. Frankly, it’s disgusting when the only artists you hear on the radio are the ones who have appeared on MTV the most often, and who have had their posters plastered on the most store walls. Actual musical talent and quality has nothing to do with “popular” music in this day and age- it’s all about how much marketing muscle there is behind each artist. Wasn’t the music industry supposed to be for the music, rather than the other way around? ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/29 "2003-04-10T06:22:44Z")
World Eater, there are plenty of indie labels which sell their CDs for far below $20 ([Fat Wreck Chords](http://www.fatwreck.com/), for example, sells full-length albums for $10), and not only pull a profit but do well enough to support their artists. The products they produce are of approximately equal (and oftentimes higher) quality to the stuff that the major labels churn out. Point by point… The disc, case & manufacturing - Covered. Manufacturing costs aren’t really that high… especially since part of the original purpose of the CD format was to reduce manufacturing costs anyway- CDs are significantly cheaper to make than records or cassette tapes. Color printing and insleeve - Also covered. I purchased a Brave Saint Saturn album (on Tooth & Nail Records) for $12 a few days ago, and its album insert was certainly better than, say, any Weezer (on Geffen) album in the last decade. Professional artwork, design, printing, the works. Distribution - There are many indie labels with international distribution, including (but hardly limited to) the aforementioned Tooth & Nail, Fat Wreck, Five Minute Walk, Fueled By Ramen, etc. Many of these labels also provide shipping speed and rates comparable to Amazon or [BN.com](http://BN.com) for web-based orders. Entertainment lawyers - Don’t know about this one way or another, but the indie labels whose music I tend to patronize don’t seem to have much legal trouble to worry about. A&R - At the average indie label, “A&R staff” tends to equate “whoever runs the other stuff as well.” I recognize that this isn’t possible for a business the size of Sony Music, but then, it’s not as if Sony Music’s A&R is seriously tapping the reservoir of today’s musical geniuses… Producers - See points on manufacturing, distribution, etc. Also, with the advent of high-speed computer processing, the recording/ mixing/ mastering process is far cheaper than it used to be. There is studio-quality music being released for free all over the internet (check out some of the non-techno stuff over at [OC Remix](http://remix.overclocked.org/index.php) sometime… I suggest Estradasphere’s [wonderful jazzy interpretation of the Super Mario Bros. 2 theme](http://remix.overclocked.org/detailmix.php?mixid=OCR00577) as a good starting point). Artist Royalties - Again, it’s quite possible to support your artists without selling albums at $20 a pop. In addition, the royalty rates for artists are insanely low on the major labels… there has been more than one case of a major act going bankrupt because their label was bleeding them clean (M.C. Hammer, anyone?). It’s not exactly “supporting” an artist when the vast, vast majority of the profit goes straight to the record company’s coffers, is it? Therefore, the only real disadvantage of small labels is their inability to advertise as effectively as the majors. And that appears to me to be more of a problem with how the music industry works than an example of why major labels are correct in their practices. Frankly, it’s disgusting when the only artists you hear on the radio are the ones who have appeared on MTV the most often, and who have had their posters plastered on the most store walls. Actual musical talent and quality has nothing to do with “popular” music in this day and age- it’s all about how much marketing muscle there is behind each artist. Wasn’t the music industry supposed to be for the music, rather than the other way around? ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/30 "2003-04-10T06:25:03Z")
Ack… so sorry about the double-post. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/31 "2003-04-10T08:06:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Hell, you could stream CD quality audio this way! Assuming a magical source of unlimited server bandwidth provided by the Fey Folk, yes, you could. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/32 "2003-04-10T12:48:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vanilla Toast \* > **The music industry is only the most prominent in the current “all the market will bear” marketing mentality that corporations thrive on.** Although I agree with you, when you look at non-prominent acts and actions, you ain’t seen nothing when you compare the actions of the Big 2 railroad companies and coal shipments. That is the textbook definition of “captive market at the mercy of a supplier who can legally charge whatever the market can bear.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/33 "2003-04-10T13:11:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nanoda \* > \*\*It’s only “market price” if there’s competition, and there’s just not. BTW, CDs do not cost the same all over. Same with DVDs. What people in the US pay, we in Canada pay in CDN, which is still too much IMHO. True, making a decent CD costs more than 1$. But not much more. Less than 2$ as a WAG. Everything else is pure markup by a company with less scruples than Microsoft. \*\* 1. I don’t believe your numbers at all. 2. There is this bizarre unwillingness on the part of people to accept that **costs do not determine price.** Jesus, guys. CDs cost $15-$20 because that is what people will pay for them. If there was a more competitive market for CDs I would be willing to bet their price might come down by a couple of bucks. But the fact of the matter is that a CD is a pretty good deal, and there’s absolutely no reason in the world why the ercord producers of the world - RIAA or independent - should give you CDs for less than they could charge at profit-maximizing levels. I’m sorry, bnut you are not entitled to be given CDs at whatever price YOU think is appropriate. I can’t believe people are bitching about paying $15-$20 for a CD, a price that is not the slightest bit unreasonable and that has held absolutely rock steady, adjusted for inflation, for the last 30 years in the music industry. Should the RIAA grow up and embrace digital distribution? Absolutely. Are their strongarm tactics offensive? You bet they are. Is $20 unreasonable for a CD? Of course not. Jesus Christ, compare the price of a CD to a movie ticket and consider how long each lasts. The price of albums as been set at the same level for so long that I think we’re becoming complacent as to how affordable they are. **neutron star,** I’ve owned a lot of vinyl records and I’ve owned a lot of CDs, and anyone who says CDs scratch “just like vinyl” can’t possibly be serious. Scratch yes. Just like vinyl, no. Vinyl albums are far harder to take care of. As for CDs skipping in a bumpy car ride, I’d like to see you use vinyl in your car at all. Not a lot of cars come with turntables. Nor can I hang a turntable off my hip and use it at work or at my gym. (Although it would look really cool to have a big Music Hall turntable hanging off your belt while you’re using the cross trainer.) CDs are better than vinyl or cassettes; I just don’t think that can be rationally disputed. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/34 "2003-04-10T14:02:00Z")
The problem, RickJay is that the record companies are extracting monopoly profits out of the consumer. There is almost no competition, if you want the new Shania Twain album, you MUST pay the one and only price set by the company. Sure, some people are willing to pay that, but a significant portion of the populace isn’t. There is a lot of resentment over the pricing, since we all know just how ridiculously cheap it is to manufacture a CD. Blank CDs are $0.25, the packaging is cheap, the distribution cheap, it looks like 90% profit. Rather than address the fact that so many people think the price is a ripoff, the RIAA wants to label people criminals, and claim that they are damaging the industry. Frankly, I think they’re insane to try and charge $20 for a CD, heck, Circut City has about 10 models of CD Player for less than $40, and one for $20! I personally think that if CDs were in the $7-10 range, people would gobble them up like mad. I’d sure as hell buy a lot more of them. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/35 "2003-04-10T14:42:30Z")
Well, frankly speaking, those people **are** criminals. And I’m fairly amused at the people who say ‘There’s only one price at which I can buy a CD’! Do you say the same thing about say, cars? Hell, there are some car dealerships that use the fact that the consumer _won’t_ have to go through the negotiating process as a selling point. Obviously, there’s a disconnect here between technological developments and current (copyright) law. This is a battle the status quo can’t win in the long term. But the things that will be upset by the coming changes are powerful and will fight back. My predictions: **At some point** music will be available online for a reasonable price (similar to the old $1 per single format that dominated music sales for so long) **This will make** the marketing aspect of music sales more important than ever. While small, independent labels will be able to place their artists out there in exactly the same format as the larger labels they _still_ won’t have the cash to compete with the advertising and marketing campaigns of the major labels. **As long as** radio continues to be dominated by a few small firms the concept of payola (in whatever legal form) will still allow those with the deepest pockets to dominate the industry. **However, artists** will begin signing with labels and, after they break big, begin leveraging their fan base themselves while not resigning with their label when their deal is up. They’ll be counting on their fan base to support them while they release music on their own small labels. Heck, both of my favorite bands (Cowboy Mouth and Mary Prankster) have done that recently. More power to them. When Britney Spears does that we’ll start to see a revolution. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/36 "2003-04-10T14:58:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Payton’s Servant \* > \*\*If _getting with the program_ involves illegally downloading music, which you seem to approve of, then forget it. > > Exactly how is the music industry going to make _every consumer, whether they listen to music or not, to pay for it?_ > > That’s one of the most illogical statements I’ve seen in a good three weeks. \*\* Where exactly did you come up with this lightning bolt of logic? #1 - I think Diamonds are artificially inflated in price too. That doesn’t mean I approve of breaking into a jewlery store or DeBeers and looting them. Theft is theft, be it downloading a song, game or taking a car that you are not legally intitled too. If you _think_ I approve of it, you are sadly mistaken and assume way too much. That’s not a good habit. #2 - OK. Here it is in a nutshell. RIAA and their brethern are crying to governments saying they are losing millions (or billions) of sales due to “rampant piracy” and are petitioning for levies on _all_ recordable media. These levies largely already exist but they want _more_. This includes blank CD and DVDs, _blank audio cassettes_, digital flash memory (even for cameras), _removable hard drives_ ('cause, you know, if you have a removable HD you’re up to no good!) heck , ANY digital media. Anyone that buys the above products for legit use or even buys a legal CD is paying extra due to them and their monopolistic practices. While it may have been an bit of an exaggeration that _every_ consumer is paying the price for their monopoly it’s not far off. It’s already been admitted that if you’ve purchased a CD between 1995-2000 you’ve [paid too much](http://www.musiccdsettlement.com/english/default.htm) Have you bought a CD in those 5 years? You’ve paid extra due to them. #3 - It isn’t illogical whatsoever. Think about it. Seriously. Here is how it could possibly effect me. I buy a spindle of 50 blank CDRs every several months. That pack will cost me (if the proposed levies in Canada go through) about an extra $40-50 each time. That’ll be around $100 a year. I don’t pirate music. That hits me in my wallet and I’ll feel it. I’ve bought dozens (if not a couple hundred) of pre-recorded music CDs. How much extra have I paid due to price controls? I have no idea but I’m pretty damn sure it is alot. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/37 "2003-04-10T15:11:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarrsk \* > **World Eater, there are plenty of indie labels which sell their CDs for far below $20 ([Fat Wreck Chords](http://www.fatwreck.com/), for example, sells full-length albums for $10), and not only pull a profit but do well enough to support their artists. The products they produce are of approximately equal (and oftentimes higher) quality to the stuff that the major labels churn out.** Indie labels have far less costs then a major label, therefore can sell them at a cheaper price and still make a good profit. What does equal or higher quality mean? Not the music, because that’s subjective, not the audio quality, because better quality = more money. \*\* > [@](#): > > Point by point… > > The disc, case & manufacturing - Covered. Manufacturing costs aren’t really that high… especially since part of the original purpose of the CD format was to reduce manufacturing costs anyway- CDs are significantly cheaper to make than records or cassette tapes. \*\* Manufacturing costs still exist nonetheless. \*\* > [@](#): > > Color printing and insleeve - Also covered. I purchased a Brave Saint Saturn album (on Tooth & Nail Records) for $12 a few days ago, and its album insert was certainly better than, say, any Weezer (on Geffen) album in the last decade. Professional artwork, design, printing, the works.\*\* What’s up with this better stuff? Better how? Was it printed on virgin lambskin with liquid gold? Whether you like the picture on the cover it still costs money. I’ll wag that a lot of CD covers on indie labels were done in house or by the owners stoned brother, cutting costs. \*\* > [@](#): > > Distribution - There are many indie labels with international distribution, including (but hardly limited to) the aforementioned Tooth & Nail, Fat Wreck, Five Minute Walk, Fueled By Ramen, etc. Many of these labels also provide shipping speed and rates comparable to Amazon or [BN.com](http://BN.com) for web-based orders.\*\* There is difference between shipping a couple of ‘Joe & the Bozos’ albums to a few hip record stores around Europe, and stocking every record store there by moving half a million Eminem albums. \*\* > [@](#): > > Entertainment lawyers - Don’t know about this one way or another, but the indie labels whose music I tend to patronize don’t seem to have much legal trouble to worry about.\*\* Pretty much every step anyone makes in the music industry is consulted with by a lawyer. They deal with day to day things, such as contracts and such, they even sign bands. Their responsibilities are different from Perry Mason, whom you may be thinking about. \*\* > [@](#): > > A&R - At the average indie label, “A&R staff” tends to equate “whoever runs the other stuff as well.” I recognize that this isn’t possible for a business the size of Sony Music, but then, it’s not as if Sony Music’s A&R is seriously tapping the reservoir of today’s musical geniuses…\*\* Sonys A&R doesn’t need to be ‘tapping the reservoir of today’s musical geniuses’, they need to move albums. In this day and age someone that looks like Britney Spears will sell more albums then some pimple faced girl with perfect pitch and an amazing voice. You may have realized that talent went out the window a long time ago, it’s about image now, and that’s what sells records. Selling records makes money, so I would say Sony’s A&R is doing fine in that department. \*\* > [@](#): > > Producers - See points on manufacturing, distribution, etc. Also, with the advent of high-speed computer processing, the recording/ mixing/ mastering process is far cheaper than it used to be. There is studio-quality music being released for free all over the internet (check out some of the non-techno stuff over at [OC Remix](http://remix.overclocked.org/index.php) sometime… I suggest Estradasphere’s [wonderful jazzy interpretation of the Super Mario Bros. 2 theme](http://remix.overclocked.org/detailmix.php?mixid=OCR00577) as a good starting point).\*\* Well as **Rickjay** aptly put it, _costs do not determine price_, please keep that in mind. Now it is true that music can be created and produced for pretty damn cheap these days (that’s what I do in fact), but here’s the problem. First if you are putting you stuff on the web for free, that has nothing to do with this debate, so lets throw that out. Most big labels won’t hesitate to bring in someone like the Neptunes, or Pdiddy, who have proven track records, and can be used for promotional purposes. While this will bring up the cost of a song or an album considerably, it may very well be worth it in the long run, because you’ll sell 2 million units if Pdiddy’s name is stamped on it. Sure you can produce your own shit for cheap, but who’s going to buy it if they never heard of you? \*\* > [@](#): > > Artist Royalties - Again, it’s quite possible to support your artists > without selling albums at $20 a pop. \*\* First off, I love how people round up 25%. Go to [www.towerrecords.com](http://www.towerrecords.com) and look at album prices, they are mostly $14.99. \*\* > [@](#): > > In addition, the royalty rates for artists are insanely low on the major labels… \*\* Yes they are. \*\* > [@](#): > > there has been more than one case of a major act going bankrupt because their label was bleeding them clean (M.C. Hammer, anyone?). \*\* Not true at all. Having a hundred person entourage, and crooked business managers (not the labels btw) did that to Hammer. Artists go broke for many reasons, mostly because they are irresponsible with their earnings, not because of poor royalties. \*\* > [@](#): > > It’s not exactly “supporting” an artist when the vast, vast majority of the profit goes straight to the record company’s coffers, is it? \*\* Well they pay for the manufacturing, art, touring, lawyers, etc, so they should get a sizable chunk no? Keep in mind the artist knows what they are getting before they sign on the dotted line. \*\* > [@](#): > > Therefore, the only real disadvantage of small labels is their inability to advertise as effectively as the majors. And that appears to me to be more of a problem with how the music industry works than an example of why major labels are correct in their practices. Frankly, it’s disgusting when the only artists you hear on the radio are the ones who have appeared on MTV the most often, and who have had their posters plastered on the most store walls. Actual musical talent and quality has nothing to do with “popular” music in this day and age- it’s all about how much marketing muscle there is behind each artist.\*\* Well I agree on a lot of those points, but I place more of the blame on the consumer. No one holds a gun to your head to go buy a N’sync album. Obviously someone likes them because there’s a huge market, a thousand knockoff bands, and they are all making money hand over fist, so draw your own conclusions. \*\* > [@](#): > > Wasn’t the music industry supposed to be for the music, rather than the other way around? \*\* Anyway all this is bullshit. They charge what they can get away with, and people buy it. If you want to bitch, go bitch at people paying $$$ for the crappy music the labels vomit out. If I sold ketchup packets for $10, and people were buying them, who is the idiot? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/38 "2003-04-10T15:22:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > **There is a lot of resentment over the pricing, since we all know just how ridiculously cheap it is to manufacture a CD. Blank CDs are $0.25, the packaging is cheap, the distribution cheap, it looks like 90% profit.** It’s a bit more complicated then that, try again. \*\* > [@](#): > > Rather than address the fact that so many people think the price is a ripoff, the RIAA wants to label people criminals, and claim that they are damaging the industry.\*\* They are criminals, do you not understand that? I wouldn’t be surprised if the industy is damaged when broadband is in every home. \*\* > [@](#): > > I personally think that if CDs were in the $7-10 range, people would gobble them up like mad. I’d sure as hell buy a lot more of them. \*\* I’ll guess they’ve done extensive research on the subject. I’m sure if that price point generated more profit, they would do it, don’t you think? I’m not on the side of the RIAA at all, I actually despise them, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/39 "2003-04-10T16:55:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Assuming a magical source of unlimited server bandwidth provided by the Fey Folk, yes, you could. \*\* I’m not sure who the Fey Folk are, and I don’t know precisely how much bandwidth costs, but it seems to me that it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to send a few hundred megabytes of data than it would to stamp a CD, label it, print liner notes, put it in a case, and send it across the country (or world). And bandwidth is only going to get cheaper. You certainly can’t say that about shipping costs or manual labor. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*neutron star, I’ve owned a lot of vinyl records and I’ve owned a lot of CDs, and anyone who says CDs scratch “just like vinyl” can’t possibly be serious. Scratch yes. Just like vinyl, no. Vinyl albums are far harder to take care of. As for CDs skipping in a bumpy car ride, I’d like to see you use vinyl in your car at all. Not a lot of cars come with turntables. Nor can I hang a turntable off my hip and use it at work or at my gym. (Although it would look really cool to have a big Music Hall turntable hanging off your belt while you’re using the cross trainer.) > > CDs are better than vinyl or cassettes; I just don’t think that can be rationally disputed.\*\* First, I never said CDs weren’t better overall than the other media. I’m just saying that the other formats _do_ have some advantages. Yes, records scratch easier than CDs. Doesn’t mean I haven’t accidently rendered several CDs useless by scratching them. Compare that to cassettes. Hell, I could take a cassette, stomp up and down on it, completely crush the casing, and _still_ be able to salvage the music. Even if the tape itself gets torn in half, anyone with scotch tape and a bit of hand-eye coordination can easily splice it back together. So what about sound quality then? It’s pretty common knowledge that a sizable group of audiophiles prefer records to CDs for their “warmer” sound. Also, don’t think cassettte noise reduction technology has been standing still since the advent of the CD. See [this](http://www.dolby.com/cassette/ssurvey.html)survey, in which most listeners (60%) couldn’t tell the difference between a CD and a Dolby S-type cassette (recorded at 80x faster than listening rate - try THAT with a CD). 25% actually preferred the S-type, and only 15% preferred the CD. That’s not to say that CDs don’t hold definite advantages over cassettes. You can burn and listen to CDs in most computers (an advantage the RIAA seems to want to take away), you can skip to specific tracks instantly, production cost is cheaper, storage life is longer, and a CD in the hands of a three-year old isn’t capable of coating an entire room in magnetic tape. All I’m saying is that compact disc technology isn’t quite the best-in-every-way medium that you make it out to be. Overall, though, I do prefer it. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365/40 "2003-04-10T17:06:26Z")
Correction/Clarification: I misread the Dolby article the first time. The 80x tapes were commercially reproduced. Having not purchased a tape deck in many years, I have no idea if home units are capable of this speed. So it’s not comparable to a CD burned in four minutes. It’s comparable to a CD stamped in a second. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-riaa/167365.md?page=3)