# Fuck: the US policy in the Mid-East **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 3, 2004, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279 "2004-03-03T11:02:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![choosybeggar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@choosybeggar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choosybeggar)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/1 "2004-03-03T11:02:13Z")
I hope this is obvious to everybody. U.S. Policy in the Mid-East is based on expanding access to global markets, resources and workforce. Capitalist “ideals” drive US aggression. Rationale for aggression thought equivocal by much of the World. > [@](#): > > US citizens think, “Why don’t they get it, their lives will be better with our system.” > > Mid-East thinks, “We have a system we’re quite pleased with thank you very much.” > > US, “Your system is immoral.” > > Mid-East, “Your system is immoral. “ Sheeit, I have little hope for the salvage of much good from the massing of opposing forces. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/2 "2004-03-03T14:46:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Mid-East thinks, “We have a system we’re quite pleased with thank you very much.” Well, for one, I don’t believe this. Polls have revealed great dissatisfaction and hatred among young men for the systems under which they live. Saudi Arabia is increasingly impoverished because of the mismanagement of the ruling class. Iraq was a charnel house. Iran is run by a half-corrupt theocracy, desperately clinging to power amid increasing opposition. Syria and Egypt are just more dictatorship. The people who live in these regimes don’t like them; they have no choice. This si why dissaffected Saudis join Al Quaeda: it offers them power, hope, and an alternative. But as to your other point, if we wanted new markets and sources, we could have had them easily and without bloodshed, for less. Saddam would have paid a lot for us to drop opposition to his regime. We could have had our market access. But on one level you are quite correct. By bringing these nations into a new era of prosperity - which we or they can only be achieved by liberalizing their societies - we will eliminate potential threats, terrorist and military, to ourselves in the future. In other words, you begged the question “Is this a bad thing.” And it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/3 "2004-03-03T14:46:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Mid-East thinks, “We have a system we’re quite pleased with thank you very much.” Well, for one, I don’t believe this. Polls have revealed great dissatisfaction and hatred among young men for the systems under which they live. Saudi Arabia is increasingly impoverished because of the mismanagement of the ruling class. Iraq was a charnel house. Iran is run by a half-corrupt theocracy, desperately clinging to power amid increasing opposition. Syria and Egypt are just more dictatorship. The people who live in these regimes don’t like them; they have no choice. This si why dissaffected Saudis join Al Quaeda: it offers them power, hope, and an alternative. But as to your other point, if we wanted new markets and sources, we could have had them easily and without bloodshed, for less. Saddam would have paid a lot for us to drop opposition to his regime. We could have had our market access. But on one level you are quite correct. By bringing these nations into a new era of prosperity - which we or they can only be achieved by liberalizing their societies - we will eliminate potential threats, terrorist and military, to ourselves in the future. In other words, you begged the question “Is this a bad thing?” And it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/4 "2004-03-03T16:02:39Z")
You’re looking at the last two years and applying it the the entire course of twentieth century history. U.S. policy in the Middle East is based on keeping the Jewish population back here happy. _Everything_ in our Mid-east policy is negotiable, except for one thing: we will not withdraw support from Israel, because that will lose the party that does it every presidential election for the next twenty years. There really are no markets to expand access to out there. Most of the ME is extremely sparsely populated, particularly the Arabian peninsula, and outside Israel there isn’t much in the way of non-oil industry. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/5 "2004-03-03T16:54:46Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > _Everything_ in our Mid-east policy is negotiable, except for one thing: we will not withdraw support from Israel, because that will lose the party that does it every presidential election for the next twenty years. If that is true, why? According to the [**CIA Factbook**](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People) only 2% of Americans are jewish. I can’t see why people would be so (altruistic?) to vote in the best interests of a foreign power every election, rather than in the interests of their own national security, own bank balance, own personal beliefs/prejudices. It strikes me as more typical of human behaviour that people would prioritise things like low taxes, or having/not having a welfare state, or gun ownership, or abortion - long before they would care about a foreign power getting a significant cut in political, financial and military support. ---
**Author:** ![Toddly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@Toddly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toddly)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/6 "2004-03-03T18:48:27Z")
I don’t think the majority of people in Iraq were satisfied with Saddam. There also seems to be a large portion of Iran that is increaseingly unsatisfied. Its rather hard to guage how satisfied people are when they don’t have the freedom to speak out without harm. There are larger workforces and markets to exploit in Asia. To my mind its all about oil and our dependence on it for the economy. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/7 "2004-03-03T19:01:47Z")
> [@](#): > > If that is true, why? According to the CIA Factbook only 2% of Americans are jewish. I can’t see why people would be so (altruistic?) to vote in the best interests of a foreign power every election, Much too simplistic. Yeah, America helps Israel largely out of the goodness of our hearts. Because we see them as brothers, even though it hurts us in other ways. And yeah, if one party screwed Israel they would die a swift, painful death at the polls. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/8 "2004-03-03T20:27:01Z")
> [@istara](#): > > If that is true, why? According to the [**CIA Factbook**](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People) only 2% of Americans are jewish. I can’t see why people would be so (altruistic?) to vote in the best interests of a foreign power every election, rather than in the interests of their own national security, own bank balance, own personal beliefs/prejudices. It strikes me as more typical of human behaviour that people would prioritise things like low taxes, or having/not having a welfare state, or gun ownership, or abortion - long before they would care about a foreign power getting a significant cut in political, financial and military support. 2% of Americans are technically Jewish; as many as 9% have a strongly Jewish background. Plus Jews have a higher median income and are twice as likely to hold a degree. This makes them a lot more likely to vote. Perhaps most importantly of all, American Jews tend to be heavily concentrated in states with a LOT of Electoral College clout- New York, Florida, and California. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/9 "2004-03-03T20:32:04Z")
Let the record show that I’m anything but anti-Semitic. It occurred to me that my posts in this thread might make it seem that way. I do, however, think our support of Israel ought to be contingent on the willingness of Israelis to stop settling occupied territories. America can’t be a peacemaker as long as is kowtows to one side of the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/10 "2004-03-04T01:10:08Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Let the record show that I’m anything but anti-Semitic. It occurred to me that my posts in this thread might make it seem that way. As long as you back your assertions up with facts then I can’t see how what you’ve said here can be seen as anti-semitic. You might want to define that 9% of the American population that has Jewish blood (or whatever–not really clear on what you were trying to say there), in other words. > [@](#): > > I do, however, think our support of Israel ought to be contingent on the willingness of Israelis to stop settling occupied territories. America can’t be a peacemaker as long as is kowtows to one side of the conflict. Agreed. Alternatively, we could just wall the place off and let them get about the business of butchering each other to their hearts content. It seems like there are sizable minorities on each side that would love nothing better than to do just that and at this point I’m sick enough of the whole situation that I say ‘let them at it.’ Maybe after they’ve killed enough of each other they’ll realize how idiotic the whole thing is (but I’m not holding my breath). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/11 "2004-03-04T02:49:30Z")
> [@Wabbit](#): > > As long as you back your assertions up with facts then I can’t see how what you’ve said here can be seen as anti-semitic. You might want to define that 9% > of the American population that has Jewish blood (or whatever–not really clear on what you were trying to say there), in other words. The 2% figure refers to people who refer to themselves as Jewish. The “up to 9%” figure is an estimate of how many Americans are more than half Jewish by ancestry, whether or not they are practicing. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/12 "2004-03-04T02:50:27Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > 2% of Americans are technically Jewish; as many as 9% have a strongly Jewish background. Plus Jews have a higher median income and are twice as likely to hold a degree. This makes them a lot more likely to vote. > > Perhaps most importantly of all, American Jews tend to be heavily concentrated in states with a LOT of Electoral College clout- New York, Florida, and California. All those things may be true, but you’re neglecting one very important item: many of us are just as disgusted with curent U.S. policy in the Middle East as you are. I have a large extended Jewish family and a fair number of Jewish friends and acquaintances; we all vote (except my sister, but I suspect she was switched at birth anyway), and out of all those people I know exactly one who voted for the party in office or would do so again. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/13 "2004-03-04T03:43:02Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > All those things may be true, but you’re neglecting one very important item: many of us are just as disgusted with curent U.S. policy in the Middle East as you are. I have a large extended Jewish family and a fair number of Jewish friends and acquaintances; we all vote (except my sister, but I suspect she was switched at birth anyway), and out of all those people I know exactly one who voted for the party in office or would do so again. Doesn’t matter. Were the Democrats in power, things wouldn’t be any different. Clinton’s administration was at least as supportive of Israel as Bush’s. Besides, _would_ you or your family vote for a candidate who said he’d withdraw support from Israel? I’m not blaming the U.S. Jewish community, I’m blaming the parties. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/14 "2004-03-04T03:50:43Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > The 2% figure refers to people who refer to themselves as Jewish. The “up to 9%” figure is an estimate of how many Americans are more than half Jewish by ancestry, whether or not they are practicing. It’s the pit and all, but I’d like a cite for that if’n ya have one. Seems very high to me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/15 "2004-03-04T04:15:04Z")
You are correct. A little research shows that I was way off… the highest estimates now top out at 3% ([http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-10-08-jewish-survey\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-10-08-jewish-survey_x.htm)) The last time I checked I got a 20 million figure somewhere, but I’m not finding that. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/16 "2004-03-04T06:04:55Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Let the record show that I’m anything but anti-Semitic. You, and the _Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ both. And I’m **sure** that some of your best friends are Jewish, too :rolleyes: Dani ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/17 "2004-03-04T07:03:22Z")
Given I went back to the U.S., I wouldn’t vote for a President who didn’t support Israel. Aside from the Christian faith…thing, it doesn’t sit well with me that the government would make deals with other Nations to let Jews go to a “safehaven”, and then not watch out for their safety until things have more or less settled down. ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/18 "2004-03-04T07:07:00Z")
president…nations… Oh, and some sort of secret code should be developed so threads like these can stay under Aldebaran’s radar. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/19 "2004-03-04T07:11:11Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > You, and the _Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ both. > > And I’m **sure** that some of your best friends are Jewish, too :rolleyes: > > Dani Half of my fraternity is Jewish- will that do? If you’d paid attention to anything I’ve posted in other threads you’d be quite clear that I’m anti-bigotry in any form. Now- fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279/20 "2004-03-04T07:12:39Z")
> [@Necro Romancer](#): > > Given I went back to the U.S., I wouldn’t vote for a President who didn’t support Israel. Aside from the Christian faith…thing, it doesn’t sit well with me that the government would make deals with other Nations to let Jews go to a “safehaven”, and then not watch out for their safety until things have more or less settled down. I didn’t mean a President who’d just go ahead and withdraw support from Israel, so much as make support contingent on changes in Israeli policy. Would that make a difference? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-the-us-policy-in-the-mid-east/232279.md?page=2)