# Fuck tolerance! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953 "2003-03-12T22:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/21 "2003-03-13T06:56:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pizzabrat \* > \*\*What a wimpy request! “Please tolerate me! Please allow me to exist in your presence!”. What’s something that sounds stronger? Something more of demand than a plea? \*\* Hey, you can demand all you want when you’re out in public, but on _my_ property, you’re there on behalf of my good graces and tolerance is the best you’re getting. Same for anybody else’s property. Don’t go demanding anything unless you’re in a position to do so. Seriously dude, you can’t force anybody to love or respect you. All you can do is make sure they don’t kill you, beat you, spit on you, stalk you, harass you, and so forth. In other words, you can enlist the arm of law enforcement to attempt to make them _outwardly_ tolerate you. Nobody is obligated to like you. Nobody is obligated to respect you. They’re just obligated not to commit an overt act of harm against you. And it’s not like tolerance is a one-way street between the “normal” people and the “others”. If one of the “normals” is being a dickhead to you, and you don’t slug him in the jaw, I’d say you’re being pretty tolerant, wouldn’t you? Tolerance goes in all directions, it’s not just a subject-object or normal-deviant relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/22 "2003-03-13T13:06:16Z")
Yeah, I disagree with George Washington. (That’s a sentence I never thought I’d say) If you think I’m evil, or inferior, or nuts, that’s your problem and your business. If, however, you use those beliefs to discriminate against me, it becomes my problem. Acceptance is better, of course, but tolerance isn’t bad either. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/23 "2003-03-13T15:42:39Z")
CanvasShoes: > [@](#): > > Was this rant in response to a particular thread? Event/happening, unpleasantness in your life? Or did you suddenly just come in and decide to rant about the concept of tolerance at large? Just random, and general. RexDart: > [@](#): > > Hey, you can demand all you want when you’re out in public, but on my property, you’re there on behalf of my good graces and tolerance is the best you’re getting. Same for anybody else’s property. Don’t go demanding anything unless you’re in a position to do so. …buh? Where did this come from? Why would I be on your property if you were only going to tolerate me? Why would you allow anyone on your property whom you could only tolerate? > [@](#): > > Seriously dude, you can’t force anybody to love or respect you. All you can do is make sure they don’t kill you, beat you, spit on you, stalk you, harass you, and so forth. In other words, you can enlist the arm of law enforcement to attempt to make them outwardly tolerate you. > > Nobody is obligated to like you. Nobody is obligated to respect you. They’re just obligated not to commit an overt act of harm against you. Nah, I don’t like the society you describe. I don’t think I live in such a minimalistic society, either. I like to believe that everyone should be afforded a default amount of respect, and that respect is heightened or lowered based on an individual’s specific qualities. It sounds pretty dreary to live in a world where everyone only grudingly allows everyone else’s existance. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/24 "2003-03-14T00:23:16Z")
Well rats, was hoping there would be more interest in this thread, it’s an interesting subject. [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) defines “Tolerance” as: > [@](#): > > 7 entries found for tolerance. > tol·er·ance ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tlr-ns) > n. > The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others. > > Leeway for variation from a standard. > The permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension, often expressed as a percent. > The capacity to endure hardship or pain. > Medicine. > Physiological resistance to a poison. > The capacity to absorb a drug continuously or in large doses without adverse effect; diminution in the response to a drug after prolonged use. > > Acceptance of a tissue graft or transplant without immunological rejection. > Unresponsiveness to an antigen that normally produces an immunological reaction. > The ability of an organism to resist or survive infection by a parasitic or pathogenic organism. And it seems as if most people accept the word as having two meanings, one which they use to mean more inline with the dictionary definition above as acceptance and respect etc. And the other having a “harsher” meaning, that of something like "barely able to stand your presence. So, in keeping with that, was in part why I was interested in why the OP was so aggravated by that term. Based on his post, he’s been subjected to the latter. No point, was just interested in other opinions on this thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/25 "2003-03-14T01:54:43Z")
Well, I haven’t been been subjected to anything, really (until this thread, at least. I was pretty pissed when I read a previous post as saying “Fuck you and your ‘demands’! You’re lucky you don’t come bleeding every day! And just try and step foot on my property!” Who the fuck said anything about anyone’s property!?! AARRRGH!! Must kill everything! Anyway…). I just had a problem with the idea of begging for tolerance. I didn’t know my definition was an unofficial, cynical one, and that the dictionary definition is a pretty resonable standard. So, nevermind then. Tolerance for all, I say. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/26 "2003-03-14T04:57:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Kneel before Zod? \*\* Snootchie bootchies! (shakes his head in disgust at making a _Mallrats_ reference) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/27 "2003-03-14T05:08:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > **There’s the part about the constant glorification of heterosexuality everywhere, in every part of the media, society, and whatnot, and next to near radio silence about anything Queer. There’s the part about the all-pervading assumption that we are gonna pair off into opposite-gender couples and have a gender identity that’s multiple-choice instead of fill-in-the-blank.** What makes you think that I like the Hobson’s choice of heterosexuality any more than you? I dont want to be forced to do something even if I want to do it. \*\* > [@](#): > > There’s how if my brother talks about his girlfriend, they’re young people in love, and if I talk about my boyfriend I’m flaunting my sexuality. \*\* Cite? \*\* > [@](#): > > It’s about how other relationships are celebrated and congratulated, but mine is somehow titillating, alarming, discomforting, or obscene. \*\* Only if it’s done right 🙂 \*\* > [@](#): > > There’s how I am at sharply increased risk of being harassed, insulted, discriminated against, beaten, tortured, or killed randomly for no other reason than the shape of someone else’s genitals. \*\* as if I haven’t been harrassed by people who assumed I was what I was not? \*\* > [@](#): > > [H]ow they’re at disproportionate risk of suicide, added onto the discrimination from others they already face. There’s how it’s a vicious uphill struggle to have any kind of self-esteem. \*\* and my best friend, who happened to be of my opposite gender, made me feel REALLY FUCKING GOOD when she assumed I was in love with her and stalking her, because, as we all know, all straight guys are raving sex lunatics if they so much as LET a woman kiss them. Are you saying I felt oh so spiffy to not have a chance to explain myself when she already had her mind made up? Are you saying I DIDNT feel like dying? Are you saying I DIDNT feel like people were treating all men like shit-raping satanic molesters during the 80s sex abuse witch trials? > [@](#): > > \*\*Does that answer your question? \*\* Fuck Off. Whew. that felt better. :o ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/28 "2003-03-14T05:56:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pizzabrat \* > \*\*Well, I haven’t been been subjected to anything, really (until this thread, at least. I was pretty pissed when I read a previous post as saying “Fuck you and your ‘demands’! You’re lucky you don’t come bleeding every day! And just try and step foot on my property!” Who the fuck said anything about anyone’s property!?! AARRRGH!! Must kill everything! Anyway…). I just had a problem with the idea of begging for tolerance. I didn’t know my definition was an unofficial, cynical one, and that the dictionary definition is a pretty resonable standard. So, nevermind then. Tolerance for all, I say. \*\* I don’t think “your” version is an unofficial one at all. Judging from this post, it seems that many people have been on the unpleasant end of so-called "tolerance. I think that many of the posts here, including yours express some pretty reasonable opinions, and/or gripes. I was hoping that more people would chime in here on this “rant” and hated to see it “die” without that chance. Even though it was a teensy bit short, it’s a valid rant. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/29 "2003-03-14T06:05:48Z")
And one thing I should add, my “friend” made it clear plenty of time she was perfectly willing to shower loads of affection on me if I were, as she suspected, gay. So if I were gay i’d get to be her “toy”, ya that’d be fun:rolleyes:. And since I’m not i must be in love with her. FUCK YOU, you fucking fag hag. Fuck the fucking felch-pirate who pointed me out in front of the whole party when you were flirting with me, and then got you and I mad, but you still went out to fucking brunch with him. And have always ignored me. And you fucking want to IM me to ask me how I am. How the fuck do you THINK I am? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/30 "2003-03-16T02:18:50Z")
> [@](#): > > as if I haven’t been harrassed by people who assumed I was what I was not? Right, Ludovic - because you, personally, experienced discrimination, harassment, and depression, the [grossly increased risk](http://www.gai-ecoute.qc.ca/sections/suicide/projet_recherche.htm) of the same things that gay people suffer, not to mention homophobic and heterosexist discrimination in general, doesn’t exist. Gee, I forgot to know that. Let me update my files. ---
**Author:** ![ratty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@ratty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratty)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/31 "2003-03-16T14:43:39Z")
I think people are bringing up some really interesting points here. We’ve got the dictionary definition, okay, but what about the colloquial use? **CanvasShoes** is right- many people use “tolerate” to mean “politely make an exception for”. I do it myself; there are plenty of things in life I don’t particularly care for, but I ‘tolerate’ them. Often I ‘tolerate’ other people’s presence or opinions- I don’t like them or agree with them, but I make an exception in the interests of preserving group unity and social harmony. But I agree with **pizzabrat** and **matt\_mcl** : “tolerating” in the colloquial sense isn’t really enough. At least, I don’t think so. Especially not where fundamental things about other people are concerned: sexuality, religious beliefs, and the like. It’s not enough to say that differences are “tolerated”. It’s like saying, “We’re not happy with it, but since the law forbids us from killing these people, we’ll just look the other way.” ‘Tolerance’ implies, insidiously, a sort of inferiority; a forced allowance to exist of certain things which are thought to be outside of normal practice. I don’t like this at all. It sets up a false dichotomy between ‘normal’ and, uh…‘not normal’, I guess. (Subnormal? Abnormal? I’m thinking we need to invent some new words here.) I’m not quite sure where I’m headed with this- it’s difficult for me to organize my thoughts on a topic that is so much a part of everyday existence. I try hard to give everyone a fair shake, and although it’s not something to be proud of, judging others seems to be a huge part of being human. I’m convinced it has something to do with our lingering obedience to the ape hierarchy. It’s so deep down in us that only evolution will get rid of it. I’m reminded of a quote from Robert Heinlein’s _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_: “Must be a yearning deep in human heart to stop other people from doing as they please. Rules, laws- always for _other_ fellow. A murky part of us, something we had before we came down out of trees and failed to shuck when we stood up. Because _not one_ of those people said: ‘Please pass this so that I won’t be able to do something I know I should stop’. Nyet, tovarishchee, was _always_ something they hated to see neighbors doing. Stop them _for their own good_- not because speaker claimed to be harmed by it.” I think this is a big part of the whole ‘tolerance’ debate. If we personally would not do something, no matter what it is, from eating peas to worshipping a Goddess to making love, we feel that no one else should do it either. And it’s sad, really, beyond the anger and the rage that such behavior causes, it’s sad that a species like ours can’t even live with itself. No, I don’t like this word, ‘tolerance’- it means too many things, too many of them negative. But there’s also something to be said for **RexDart’s** social minimalism. As individuals, we are very, very small. The world is a giant place, filled with more people and things than we can ever really grasp. No one is owed anything, nothing is guaranteed, and no matter what we feel _should_ be the case, the world is a certain way. Hmm. This is hard. I don’t feel that anyone deserves any special treatment, but I don’t think anyone here is asking for that. I think people just want recognition, and respect- nothing fancy, just the basics, the sort of well-mannered “stranger on the street” respect that most of us were raised with but most of us forget in our worse moments. And I think we all need a sense of perspective. We need to get our prioroties in order. Not to get all bleeding-heart, but terrible things are happening all the time everywhere, things like war and poverty and hunger and domestic violence, plane crashes, disease, genocide, and a massive and ever-growing sense of deep personal dissatisfaction. Bad-crazy fucked-up shit is going down everywhere you look, most of it preventable, and there are still people who get their collective panties in a big self-righteous wad whenever they see two people of the same gender holding hands and kissing? I will never understand my fellow man. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/32 "2003-03-16T14:58:07Z")
A couple of points here: 1. If you get the feeling that some is “just barely tolerating” your presence, let me clue you in – they are NOT being tolerant. Making a show of how tolerant you are is in fact being intolerant. 2. I’ve alway been a fan of tolerance, and here’s why. There are two other options. I won’t waste much time on **in** tolerance, as it leads to nothing but conflict and trouble. Only idiots want that. The other is acceptance, or in the PC jargon of late, “celebrating diversity”. It’s a lovely ideal, and in most cases an admirable goal. It has its limits. I don’t want to celebrate the diversity represented by the members of NAMBLA, or Brian Mitchell. Really, we all have our discomfort levels. We all have our own character flaws. Personally, I think it’s a bit much to demand that we join in the “celebration” of things that make us uncomfortable. In my view, the distinction between tolerance and acceptance, and of a lifestyle or behavior is a purely internal one. Why should you care whether I’m happy or not about your life choices, so long as I don’t make them an issue between us. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/33 "2003-03-16T15:19:15Z")
Which is why, in addition to trying to stop homophobic _behaviour_, we’re working to educate and change homophobic and heterosexist _mindsets_, so that people can feel free to disapprove of me on my merits, not because I fuck guys. ---
**Author:** ![SpaceGhostofArrakis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@SpaceGhostofArrakis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceGhostofArrakis)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953/34 "2003-03-16T19:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Kneel before Zod? \*\* **KNEEL BEFORE THE WEATHER CHANNEL!!!** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-tolerance/160953.md?page=1)