# Fuck you AT&T, Fuck you landlord **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351 "2012-08-03T22:16:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/61 "2012-08-06T14:24:49Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Sorry if facts bother you. I’m sure that since you installed and serviced them, you would know all about the billing part, and the CEO’s job, and all of the various sundry items that had fuckall to do with your job, your ignorant blanket statements, and your dearth of legal knowledge. Bravo, dumbass. Facts? Smart guy, show me all the AT&T DSL and Uverse customers who’ve had their bandwidth caps enforced. The fact is that I’m RIGHT. Most hardwired customers do not have an enforced bandwidth cap. I am right about that, and calling me “dumbass” doesn’t change that. But it’s good that you stopped using facts and information that I already know to try to convince me. That won’t work, because I already know a lot more than you about this. Legal knowledge? Hey, Clarence Goddamn Darrow, show me all these cases where people were prosecuted for this crime specifically, without being prosecuted for anything else. Losing arguments on the internet seems to be a hobby for a lot of people. I used to do it, too, until I decided to keep my mouth shut until I knew I had at least half the truth on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Tyger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Silver\_Tyger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Tyger)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/62 "2012-08-06T14:45:40Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Have you been living there for four months? What have you been doing for internet up until now? I haven’t had any internet at home, in the idea that I would be more productive for awhile (spoiler: not entirely successful). When my boyfriend was over sometimes he’d turn his phone into a hotspot for a while. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Your landlord is being lazy, but it’s also not going to be fun for him to sit and wait on hold for 15 minutes, then spend 15 minutes trying to convince AT&T that he’s the landlord. When I called, I wasn’t on hold over 5 minutes (I don’t think she’ll care either way). I’ll be going with Charter probably and fuck it all. > [@Lobot](#): > > Most people don’t even realise they’re doing it. It seems a bit of an arsehole move to take advantage of their naivety–at the very least, inform them (which **ST** has). In case anyone is wondering, he secured his internet the day after I left the note. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/63 "2012-08-06T14:53:33Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Facts? Smart guy, show me all the AT&T DSL and Uverse customers who’ve had their bandwidth caps enforced. All? I’m assuming you’re retarded at this point. [Here’s one](http://www.komonews.com/news/tech/125614378.html) > [@](#): > > SEATTLE – Andre Vrignaud admits to using a lot of Internet bandwidth. That is until Comcast, his Internet service provider, cut him off for using too much bandwidth. Now he’s been banned for one full year from Comcast as a penalty. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/64 "2012-08-06T14:56:10Z")
Oh and here’s the other part: [Police have arrested a man for using someone else’s wireless Internet network in one of the first criminal cases involving this fairly common practice.](http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205_162-707361.html) ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/65 "2012-08-06T15:06:07Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > All? I’m assuming you’re retarded at this point. [Here’s one](http://www.komonews.com/news/tech/125614378.html) At least I know the difference between Comcast and AT&T. I specifically asked you to show me where AT&T had enforced its bandwidth cap. Come on, can you do it? What you have is one customer, in one place, at one time, on one provider. In fact, you’re wrong on TWO levels simultaneously. The OP has the choice of Charter or AT&T, NEITHER of which enforces a bandwidth cap. I’m asking you honestly–do you _really think_ you have any hope of convincing me? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/66 "2012-08-06T15:11:01Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Oh and here’s the other part: > [Police have arrested a man for using someone else’s wireless Internet network in one of the first criminal cases involving this fairly common practice.](http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205_162-707361.html) Yep, I’m beat. Oh wait, I’M NOT. Here’s the link to the wiki– > **[Legality of piggybacking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_piggybacking)** > > Laws regarding "unauthorized access of a computer network" exist in many legal codes, though the wording and meaning differs from one to the next. However, the interpretation of terms like "access" and "authorization" is not clear, and there is no general agreement on whether piggybacking (intentional access of an open Wi-Fi network without harmful intent) falls under this classification. Some jurisdictions prohibit it, some permit it, and others are not well-defined. > For example, a common b... According to that, they found 4 convictions in the US, total, so far. All 4 were cases where someone was outside their own home, using a NON-neighbor’s Wifi. There has never been a recorded case of arrest or conviction in the US for using your own neighbor’s wifi. I challenge you to find one. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/67 "2012-08-06T15:19:17Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Legal knowledge? Hey, Clarence Goddamn Darrow, show me all these cases where people were prosecuted for this crime specifically, without being prosecuted for anything else. > [@al27052](#): > > There has never been a recorded case of arrest or conviction in the US for using your own neighbor’s wifi. I challenge you to find one. Oh, you’re moving the goalposts now? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/68 "2012-08-06T15:28:30Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Oh, you’re moving the goalposts now? :rolleyes: 4 convictions out of literally hundreds of millions of individual illegal acts isn’t much of a win. The conviction rate for jaywalking is probably higher. And the original goalpost is the OP’s situation. But yes, I suppose you caught me “moving the goalposts.” You also caught me exposing the stupidity of your position, too, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/69 "2012-08-06T15:38:26Z")
So, when traveling about with my iPad, at what point do I become a felon? I am sitting outside at Starbucks drinking a coffee. My device detects a WiFi signal, connects, and chimes that I have an email. At what point am I committing a crime? ETA: Now, I’ve used Starbucks WiFi before, with their permission. But it seems my device has connected to the neighbor’s signal. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/70 "2012-08-06T15:47:58Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > 4 convictions out of literally hundreds of millions of individual illegal acts isn’t much of a win. The conviction rate for jaywalking is probably higher. > > And the original goalpost is the OP’s situation. > > But yes, I suppose you caught me “moving the goalposts.” You also caught me exposing the stupidity of your position, too, I’d say. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/71 "2012-08-06T16:41:24Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > :rolleyes: .I’m overwhelmed by this cogent, well-researched, well-organized argument. Now I’m changing my mind for sure. You’re a genius! ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/72 "2012-08-06T17:11:58Z")
First your landlord probably won’t call. AT&T will probably try to make the landlord accountable for the bill. AT&T does have some leverage there, as once you burn out the other service provider, that address will be harder to rent out if no one can get Internet service to it. Second, good luck to all you folks who are content to free-ride any signal that you get in an urban area. It isn’t highly productive to provide man-in-the-middle attacks for professional criminals, but high school and collage kids can always use or sell what ever data they can get from providing you that friendly free service. Third, most service contract prohibit the subscriber from extending their service to another location (think about the people who used to share one cable connection between apartments), so even though it may or may not be a crime, it is very likely against the subscribers contract. So, if they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they are in violation of their service agreement. It wouldn’t take much to outfit all AT&T and similar company vehicles with the ability to identify open connections as they’re working in the area and basically kill (or bill) those subscribers for contact violation. The entire thing could be automated on a single laptop w/an antenna so the tech driving the truck wouldn’t have to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/73 "2012-08-06T17:16:21Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > .I’m overwhelmed by this cogent, well-researched, well-organized argument. Now I’m changing my mind for sure. You’re a genius! You’ve brought so much to the board. Please continue with your ignorance in the pit. It’s well-served. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/74 "2012-08-06T17:31:22Z")
How’s this for an analogy: The neighbor plants an apple tree that’s on the property line between your houses. It grows so that half the branches sweep out over your lawn. In the summer, it blooms and every so often an apple lands right in your backyard. Whose apple is that? Is it ok if you eat it? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/75 "2012-08-06T17:34:19Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > Second, good luck to all you folks who are content to free-ride any signal that you get in an urban area. It isn’t highly productive to provide man-in-the-middle attacks for professional criminals, but high school and collage kids can always use or sell what ever data they can get from providing you that friendly free service. > > Third, most service contract prohibit the subscriber from extending their service to another location (think about the people who used to share one cable connection between apartments), so even though it may or may not be a crime, it is very likely against the subscribers contract. So, if they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they are in violation of their service agreement. It wouldn’t take much to outfit all AT&T and similar company vehicles with the ability to identify open connections as they’re working in the area and basically kill (or bill) those subscribers for contact violation. The entire thing could be automated on a single laptop w/an antenna so the tech driving the truck wouldn’t have to do anything. You’re right about the data-mining, although that’s pretty rare. As far as your idea about billing people extra for open wireless, that would go over like a lead kite. Since you’ve probably never worked in the industry, _unlike me_, you probably don’t realize how incredibly badly this would hurt any company that tried it. Think about it…most people have a choice between cable and DSL. If the local cable provider does this, people immediately switch to DSL. Or the reverse. Billing people extra for open wireless is simply not part of the TOS of any provider, and they’d get sued so fucking hard their heads would spin. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/76 "2012-08-06T17:35:28Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > You’ve brought so much to the board. Please continue with your ignorance in the pit. It’s well-served. Sore loser much? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/77 "2012-08-06T17:36:06Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > How’s this for an analogy: > > The neighbor plants an apple tree that’s on the property line between your houses. It grows so that half the branches sweep out over your lawn. In the summer, it blooms and every so often an apple lands right in your backyard. > Whose apple is that? Is it ok if you eat it? Not bad, but a closer analogy might be “Is it OK if I bore a hole in the apple and use it to jerk off?” ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/78 "2012-08-06T17:44:38Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Not bad, but a closer analogy might be “Is it OK if I bore a hole in the apple and use it to jerk off?” That reminds me of this– > **[best of craigslist: No More Sex With Fruit](https://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sat/1573195432.html)** Did you post that? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/79 "2012-08-06T18:26:35Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Oh, you’re moving the goalposts now? :rolleyes: Technically, he’s moving them back. The original claim was that ISPs either don’t have bandwidth caps or rarely enforce them. One incident seems pretty rare to me. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/80 "2012-08-06T18:34:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Billing people extra for open wireless is simply not part of the TOS of any provider, and they’d get sued so fucking hard their heads would spin. I know you work there and all.. but I Googled “cable service contract” and pulled up the first one in the list: > [@](#): > > Digital Cable Equipment Usage Terms: We will deliver to the subscriber’s premises the necessary equipment (such as GI DCT-2000, for example) for subscriber’s use, in connection with this agreement. The converter is and shall remain the sole property of TVS Cable. All equipment is uniquely identifiable and addressable. **We may deactivate it remotely without advance notice or permission of the subscriber.** With regard to such equipment, **the subscriber agrees:** 1) To use the equipment for the purpose of receiving the service ordered form TVS Cable and for no other purpose. **2) To prevent any connections to the equipment which are not expressly authorized by TVS Cable, any such unauthorized connection or tampering is considered unlawful. I understand that I may be criminally liable for theft of service for such unauthorized connections and that any unauthorized equipment found attached illegally may be confiscated by TVS Cable.** 3) To prevent tampering, altering, or repair of the equipment by any person other than authorized personnel. 4) To assume complete responsibility for improper use, damage, or loss of such equipment regardless of cause. … So, yes they can turn it off and they claim it could be considered unlawful. And no, they would not _“get sued so fucking hard their heads would spin”_ if you’ve signed that contract. (really, do you have to use such language?) > [@al27052](#): > > As far as your idea about billing people extra for open wireless, that would go over like a lead kite. Since you’ve probably never worked in the industry, _unlike me_, you probably don’t realize how incredibly badly this would hurt any company that tried it. > > Think about it…most people have a choice between cable and DSL. If the local cable provider does this, people immediately switch to DSL. Or the reverse. Since you work there, you do realize that the distinction between cable and DSL services is really just the wire/equipment used, right? When you say ‘DSL’, you’re usually talking AT&T or who ever the last mile provider is that may be contracted out to these bundlers. Cable is who ever has the monopoly on that infrastructure. Now would they do it? Let’s see, who ever thought that a ‘broadband’ provider would cap ‘unlimited’ internet at 5GB/month then start billing at insane rates and still be able to call that unlimited? Yes, that went over like a lead balloon. The end result was that they throttled instead of just billing away. But how many customers paid how many thousands of dollars in billing before the courts stepped in? The end result? They throttled to the point that most customers were forced to upgrade their contracts to a more expensive level or they went elsewhere. But do you think they lost money on that deal? Not hardly. The fact is that cable companies did execute an aggressive campaign to stop cable TV piggy backing (it was a 800 number where people could turn in neighbors and the ads ran around the clock for a couple years). Just the threat of being turned in caused people to get (pay for) their own service. There is nothing to stop DSL and Cable service providers from identifying open links. Where will these people go? To the over-priced, bandwidth limited cell or satellite? Never say never when money is involved. It doesn’t matter if customers are happy, what matters is the ROI. Just look at that Netflix fiasco. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351.md?page=5)