# Fuck you AT&T, Fuck you landlord **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351 "2012-08-03T22:16:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/81 "2012-08-06T18:34:12Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Technically, he’s moving them back. The original claim was that ISPs either don’t have bandwidth caps or rarely enforce them. One incident seems pretty rare to me. [Here’s an article about how AT&T has started enforcing their bandwidth caps.](http://stopthecap.com/tag/usage/) One roach across the kitchen counter doesn’t show all of those that live behind the walls either. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/82 "2012-08-06T18:44:28Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > 4 convictions out of literally hundreds of millions of individual illegal acts isn’t much of a win. The conviction rate for jaywalking is probably higher. Why are you focusing on convictions? You asked about people who have had their bandwidth cap ‘enforced’. That would usually involve some warnings from the company and then being dropped as a customer (the warning phone call has happened to me, and other people I know). Thus the major risk of having freeloaders on your wireless is that you might lose service as a consequence of going over bandwidth, not that you might be charged with a crime. Now you only want to know about the people who were convicted? Sure, that’s the worst case scenario, but being hassled by the company because of your moochy neighbour is annoying too. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/83 "2012-08-06T18:45:36Z")
All right, so historically they haven’t enforced their caps. I’m sure al recognizes the fact that a company can change their policies for future violations. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/84 "2012-08-06T19:23:27Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > [Here’s an article about how AT&T has started enforcing their bandwidth caps.](http://stopthecap.com/tag/usage/) One roach across the kitchen counter doesn’t show all of those that live behind the walls either. So, going back closer to the OP’s original statements. Say, your neighbor has an unprotected wifi and a contract with one of these places that lets the service run over limits and just starts charging you extra. The neighbor only emails, so has never had an over limit charge. You move in, see the ‘free service’ hook up and start watching netflix day and night in between gaming. Suddenly, the neighbor’s $39.95 bill jumps to $800. It takes them two months to track down the user (so you’re racked up $1600 on the neighbor’s bill - local authorities left the wifi open so they could get your device identification and document usage patterns). So, should you be criminally charged for theft of services? There was no password, right? Should you be charged under the Federal Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 for unauthorized access? Should you have to pay the attorney fees if the neighbor has to sue you in court to force you to pay her bill? What if you’re broke and can’t pay the bill and now she no longer has communications with her kitty-cat club, her only connection to the outside world, because they’ve terminated her service for non-payment. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/85 "2012-08-06T19:28:11Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > So, going back closer to the OP’s original statements. Say, your neighbor has an unprotected wifi and a contract with one of these places that lets the service run over limits and just starts charging you extra. The neighbor only emails, so has never had an over limit charge. > > You move in, see the ‘free service’ hook up and start watching netflix day and night in between gaming. Suddenly, the neighbor’s $39.95 bill jumps to $800. It takes them two months to track down the user (so you’re racked up $1600 on the neighbor’s bill - local authorities left the wifi open so they could get your device identification and document usage patterns). > > So, should you be criminally charged for theft of services? There was no password, right? Should you be charged under the Federal Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 for unauthorized access? > > Should you have to pay the attorney fees if the neighbor has to sue you in court to force you to pay her bill? What if you’re broke and can’t pay the bill and now she no longer has communications with her kitty-cat club, her only connection to the outside world, because they’ve terminated her service for non-payment. Yes. No. Yes. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/86 "2012-08-06T19:38:11Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > I know you work there and all.. but I Googled “cable service contract” and pulled up the first one in the list: > > So, yes they can turn it off and they claim it could be considered unlawful. And no, they would not _“get sued so fucking hard their heads would spin”_ if you’ve signed that contract. (really, do you have to use such language?) > > Since you work there, you do realize that the distinction between cable and DSL services is really just the wire/equipment used, right? When you say ‘DSL’, you’re usually talking AT&T or who ever the last mile provider is that may be contracted out to these bundlers. Cable is who ever has the monopoly on that infrastructure. > > Now would they do it? Let’s see, who ever thought that a ‘broadband’ provider would cap ‘unlimited’ internet at 5GB/month then start billing at insane rates and still be able to call that unlimited? Yes, that went over like a lead balloon. The end result was that they throttled instead of just billing away. But how many customers paid how many thousands of dollars in billing before the courts stepped in? The end result? They throttled to the point that most customers were forced to upgrade their contracts to a more expensive level or they went elsewhere. But do you think they lost money on that deal? Not hardly. > > The fact is that cable companies did execute an aggressive campaign to stop cable TV piggy backing (it was a 800 number where people could turn in neighbors and the ads ran around the clock for a couple years). Just the threat of being turned in caused people to get (pay for) their own service. There is nothing to stop DSL and Cable service providers from identifying open links. Where will these people go? To the over-priced, bandwidth limited cell or satellite? > > Never say never when money is involved. It doesn’t matter if customers are happy, what matters is the ROI. Just look at that Netflix fiasco. Comparing stealing cable to using someone’s open Wifi is just ridiculous. One is easily catchable and provable, because it requires a physical connection. The other is neither easily catchable or provable, although it can be done. Comparing cell network data to hardwired data is even more ridiculous. The iPhone crashed AT&T’s network 5 years ago when it came out, and now ALL the major providers struggle to keep up with smartphone data usage. In fact, this is one of the main reasons we’re even _having_ this discussion. Smartphones and tablets automatically use unprotected wifi unless you set them not to. This is because the manufacturers are in league with the cell providers. The cell networks are strained already. Take away the automatic usage of unprotected wifi, and it would be way worse in urban areas, where the problem is worst anyway. Did you notice the contract mentioned termination of service, but specifically didn’t mention extra charges? So I was right about that, and you are wrong, by the very link that you posted. They _would_ get sued. Dude, TV and internet providers are CONSTANTLY getting sued, every time they raise their prices. I know this because I’ve seen every TV and internet provider I’ve worked for get sued multiple times, every time their packages increase in price. AT&T got sued over data plan pricing, Dish got sued over their main packages going up in price, etc. etc.. To be honest, the lawsuits are a given. They just happen no matter what. The only issue is how big the settlement ends up being. Don’t tell me to ‘never say never’. Dude, I work in this industry. I can provide links for everything I claim. Por favor. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/87 "2012-08-06T19:43:34Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Why are you focusing on convictions? You asked about people who have had their bandwidth cap ‘enforced’. That would usually involve some warnings from the company and then being dropped as a customer (the warning phone call has happened to me, and other people I know). Thus the major risk of having freeloaders on your wireless is that you might lose service as a consequence of going over bandwidth, not that you might be charged with a crime. Now you only want to know about the people who were convicted? Sure, that’s the worst case scenario, but being hassled by the company because of your moochy neighbour is annoying too. The onus is on the freeloader to not overdo it with the data usage. I personally password protect every network I maintain, no matter what. I even setup my parents with a password on their wifi, which is pointless, considering that they live over 100 yards from their nearest neighbor, and all their neighbors are old country folk, who can barely even surf the net, if they get online at all. We’re not talking about the wifi owner’s position, though. We’re talking about the freeloader’s job, which is to use without _overusing_. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/88 "2012-08-06T19:48:41Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > Suddenly, the neighbor’s $39.95 bill jumps to $800 This won’t happen on a hard-wired connection. The ISP would warn the customer before they’d jack up their bill, and any increase would probably only be 50 or 100 bucks at most. Even that’s hypothetical. Slowdowns are more likely, or just termination. On a wireless 3G/4G connection, this could happen. Sprint’s 4G service, a.k.a. WiMax, is totally unlimited, so this wouldn’t happen with them. Verizon and the others don’t offer unlimited cell data plans anymore to new customers, so this could theoretically happen to one of their customers. It would be a rare situation, though. That’s outside this discussion, though, because we are talking about the freeloader’s responsibility, not the Wifi owner’s responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/89 "2012-08-06T19:51:33Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > At least I know the difference between Comcast and AT&T. I specifically asked you to show me where AT&T had enforced its bandwidth cap. Come on, can you do it? Apparently I can: > [@al27052](#): > > **Slowdowns are more likely, or just termination.** Thanks for the “inside industry” knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/90 "2012-08-06T19:52:16Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Yes. > No. > Yes. > Yes. Hell, just execute 'em. Kill the Wifi thieves! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/91 "2012-08-06T19:53:46Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > That reminds me of this– > > [best of craigslist: No More Sex With Fruit](http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sat/1573195432.html) > > Did you post that? No, can’t claim that one. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/92 "2012-08-06T19:54:32Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Apparently I can: > Thanks for the “inside industry” knowledge. Slowdowns and terminations on hard-wired connections are very, very rare. They tend to produce class-action lawsuits, which are expensive, and PR nightmares, which are ALSO expensive. Pissing off customers is rarely a good idea. It costs money, big money. Look, your knowledge of this is all secondhand at best. Why not just let the whole thing go? Are you really this invested in a subject that you have no real-world experience with? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/93 "2012-08-06T19:56:40Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Slowdowns and terminations are very, very rare. They tend to produce class-action lawsuits, which are expensive, and PR nightmares, which are ALSO expensive. > > Pissing off customers is rarely a good idea. It costs money, big money. > > Look, your knowledge of this is all secondhand at best. Why not just let the whole thing go? Are you really this invested in a subject that you have no real-world experience with? If so, why? So you proved my claim in a really extraordinarily dumb way. And my “secondhand knowledge” has been backed up by proof whereas your claims that you “work in the industry” suddenly hold water? Keep diggin’ bud. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/94 "2012-08-06T20:18:56Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Comparing stealing cable to using someone’s open Wifi is just ridiculous. One is easily catchable and provable, because it requires a physical connection. The other is neither easily catchable or provable, although it can be done. Actually, the theft often goes unnoticed. Once noticed, the device is easily identifiable and, if active, easily locatable. The place where damaged plaintiffs loose their case (either civil or criminal) is because they fail to document it sufficiently to prevail in court. Just because the people involved fail to do it from in-experience, doesn’t mean that it isn’t possible or even that it’s particularly hard to prove. > [@](#): > > Comparing cell network data to hardwired data is even more ridiculous. Your statement was that cable and DSL won’t enforce contracts for fear of loosing customers. My statement was that there are only limited options, if both enforce it, where will customers go? To slower, more expensive cell based services? > [@](#): > > In fact, this is one of the main reasons we’re even _having_ this discussion. Smartphones and tablets automatically use unprotected wifi unless you set them not to. This is because the manufacturers are in league with the cell providers. The cell networks are strained already. Take away the automatic usage of unprotected wifi, and it would be way worse in urban areas, where the problem is worst anyway. Dude - just because a device is configured to hop onto an open link, does not make the unauthorized use of a **private** wifi link legal. What, r u like 15 or something? I bet you run windows loaded off the CD with all the default configurations too. > [@](#): > > Did you notice the contract mentioned termination of service, but specifically didn’t mention extra charges? So I was right about that, and you are wrong, by the very link that you posted. My original statement was that they could **“kill (or bill) the subscriber for an open connection”** - So, no I was not wrong. They can terminate the service at any time without notice. They would not loose a law suit. I’ll give you that they can’t just bill for an open wifi connection, but they can _AND DO_ bill for bandwidth overages. > [@](#): > > Dude, TV and internet providers are CONSTANTLY getting sued, every time they raise their prices. I know this because I’ve seen every TV and internet provider I’ve worked for get sued multiple times, every time their packages increase in price. AT&T got sued over data plan pricing, Dish got sued over their main packages going up in price, etc. etc.. > > To be honest, the lawsuits are a given. They just happen no matter what. The only issue is how big the settlement ends up being. > > Don’t tell me to ‘never say never’. Dude, I work in this industry. **I can provide links for everything I claim.** Por favor. Post [del]three[/del] two law suits **brought against service providers** for termination of subscriber services as a result of subscriber contract violations. (Ideally, at least one where the subscriber actually won their case). ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/95 "2012-08-06T20:45:45Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > The onus is on the freeloader to not overdo it with the data usage. What? Talk about moving the goalposts. You were insistent that there was no such thing as a bandwidth cap and no consequences for exceeding bandwidth, and now you suddenly switch to saying that slowdowns, termination of service, and increased bills are common. But now you want to change the argument to ‘the freeloader should be polite and not take too much’. That’s almost entirely off topic. Also, I’d like some kind of cite for this fascinating piece of insider information from someone oh-so-involved in the trade: > [@al27052](#): > > if my neighbor is broadcasting wifi signal into my home without my permission, he is invading my space, and is therefore inviting me to use his Wifi, if he leaves it unsecured with a password. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/96 "2012-08-06T21:11:53Z")
In the absence of strong “wireless signal home invasion” laws, conscientious homeowners and renters are advised to wear protective headgear at all times. Reynold’s Wrap Heavy Duty, not that cheap store brand shit. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/97 "2012-08-06T21:32:34Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > But now you want to change the argument to ‘the freeloader should be polite and not take too much’. That’s almost entirely off topic. Apparently a carry-over from the breaking and entry laws where if the perp is polite and doesn’t take much, he gets off without a conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/98 "2012-08-06T21:34:40Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > In the absence of strong “wireless signal home invasion” laws, conscientious homeowners and renters are advised to wear protective headgear at all times. Reynold’s Wrap Heavy Duty, not that cheap store brand shit. But, be sure that you contract with an industry insider for proper installation and fit. Otherwise, you’re just inviting me to blast you with my radio waves. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/99 "2012-08-06T22:17:00Z")
Plenty of interesting posts here. Just none from the aggressively stupid **al27052** , who seems to adopt the teenager-style attitude that if you can get away with something and nobody really notices, that’s all the justification you need. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351/100 "2012-08-06T23:07:40Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So then, when my iPad automatically connects, it is my duty to investigate the source of the signal and determine whether or not the signal is a free offering? > [@kayaker](#): > > So, when traveling about with my iPad, at what point do I become a felon? I am sitting outside at Starbucks drinking a coffee. My device detects a WiFi signal, connects, and chimes that I have an email. At what point am I committing a crime? > > ETA: Now, I’ve used Starbucks WiFi before, with their permission. But it seems my device has connected to the neighbor’s signal. Your iPad won’t automatically connect to an access point unless it has been connected before. If it detects an unknown WiFi signal it will ask to join, but it won’t connect unless you tell it to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-at-t-fuck-you-landlord/630351.md?page=6)