# Fuck you, Bush. Gitmo prisoners have rights! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692 "2008-06-12T14:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/61 "2008-06-13T05:24:14Z")
[QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] To be beaten and tortured. Why can’t you see what’s wrong with that? [/quote] I am not arguing that is right. I am saying that it does not violate the Constitution or the law. Unconstitutional does not mean morally objectionable. > [@](#): > > Option 1: Canada where he’d not be beaten till he bleed with bare wires. > > Option 2: Syria, where he would be beaten while begged and pleaded for mercy between screams of agony daily. Both options are legal. > [@](#): > > If Syria claims you’re a citizen would you be okay if Canada deported you to be brutalized daily? I am not a citizen of Syria. Amar was. There is no dispute on this point. > [@](#): > > What is missing in your troll brain you can’t see why that’s wrong? Again, I am not addressing whether it right or wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/62 "2008-06-13T05:27:30Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I’ll take that as your admittance that you cannot argue rationally. I am an American citizen who is legally in the United States. I have different rights that than a suspect attempting to enter the US (even just for a layover). Amar was not kidnapped. He was legally deported. Your hypothetical was that I was kidnapped. That issue is closed in your hypothetical. Kidnapping is an illegal act that when done by state actors violates the Constitution. But a legal deportation is not a kidnapping. If changed the law to whether I could be legally taken from my home and deported, then I would have no remedy as I would not be kidnapped. [/QUOTE] So in other words your troll ass would find no fault in being beaten daily. Gotcha. Btw “high crimes and misdemeanors” means whatever the fuck Congress defines it to mean. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/63 "2008-06-13T05:39:23Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I am not arguing that is right. I am saying that it does not violate the Constitution or the law. Unconstitutional does not mean morally objectionable. [/quote] A state actor sent a guy, with no trial, to be tortured. This doesn’t fall under cruel or unusual punishment to you? That was nto a deportation. a deportation would have sent him to Canada. He had a lawful Canadian passport, and lawful Canadian citizenship. > [@](#): > > Both options are legal. sure troll sure Why would anyone but an inhuman cunt stain pick Syria? Hell Canada is closer. It’s cheaper to deport him to Canada. He was heading there anyway. The choice was clearly meant as punishment. You’re just the biggest joke ever. Go suck chaney’s dick asswipe. > [@](#): > > I am not a citizen of Syria. Amar was. There is no dispute on this point. Against his will, and he was also a Canadian citizen. If a country decides you’re a citizen there’s no way to not be. You can stay out of their jurisdiction so you’re effectively out of their control, unless a presidential piece of human excrement sends you there, but you’re a citizen. In short he was Canadian with another country claiming against his will. > [@](#): > > Again, I am not addressing whether it right or wrong. No, you’re just rationalizing torture. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/64 "2008-06-13T05:39:54Z")
[QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] So in other words your troll ass would find no fault in being beaten daily. Gotcha. [/quote] Do you a problem reading? I did not say I would not have a problem with it. But if is was legal then it would be legal by definition. Thankfully it is not legal to kidnap me and have me beaten. For Amar, it sucks that this deportation was legal. > [@](#): > > Btw “high crimes and misdemeanors” means whatever the fuck Congress defines it to mean. And Congress has not made this determination toward anything done by Bush. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/65 "2008-06-13T05:46:44Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Do you a problem reading? I did not say I would not have a problem with it. But if is was legal then it would be legal by definition. Thankfully it is not legal to kidnap me and have me beaten. For Amar, it sucks that this deportation was legal. [/quote] By deportation you mean Constitutional rights violations I’m sure. > [@](#): > > And Congress has not made this determination toward anything done by Bush. Which is a travesty. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/66 "2008-06-13T05:47:40Z")
[QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] A state actor sent a guy, with no trial, to be tortured. [/quote] Did he have a legal right to a trial? Please cite the specific law. > [@](#): > > This doesn’t fall under cruel or unusual punishment to you? No, that only applies to post-conviction treatment. We just had a tread on this. > [@](#): > > That was nto a deportation. a deportation would have sent him to Canada. He had a lawful Canadian passport, and lawful Canadian citizenship. He was also a lawful citizen of Syria. There is no dispute on this. > [@](#): > > sure troll sure > > Why would anyone but an inhuman cunt stain pick Syria? Hell Canada is closer. It’s cheaper to deport him to Canada. He was heading there anyway. The choice was clearly meant as punishment. > > You’re just the biggest joke ever. Go suck chaney’s dick asswipe. Nothing of substance to address here―just name-calling. > [@](#): > > Against his will, and he was also a Canadian citizen. If a country decides you’re a citizen there’s no way to not be. You can stay out of their jurisdiction so you’re effectively out of their control, unless a presidential piece of human excrement sends you there, but you’re a citizen. > > In short he was Canadian with another country claiming against his will. He is a Syria citizen. He was born is Syria which is the most basic way a person becomes a citizen of a country. It called jus soli citizenship. Syria did not just decide he was a citizen. He was a citizen. > [@](#): > > No, you’re just rationalizing torture. No, I am just not addressing the moral issues. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/67 "2008-06-13T05:51:51Z")
[QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] By deportation you mean Constitutional rights violations I’m sure. [/QUOTE] Please specifically address how the Constitution was violated by what happened to Arar. Nothing vague―let’s see some specifics. All Amar’s = Arar ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/68 "2008-06-13T05:53:35Z")
Btw Canadian citizens like him have access to the US without a visa for a limited time, surely his airport layover wasn’t measured in months. Why would a lawful Canadian be deported? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/69 "2008-06-13T05:57:26Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Please specifically address how the Constitution was violated by what happened to Arar. Nothing vague―let’s see some specifics. All Amar’s = Arar [/QUOTE] Well a lawful Canadian, with lawful access to the US, was sent to Syria to be tortured. Amendment 4, and Amendment 8 ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/70 "2008-06-13T06:02:35Z")
[QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] Btw Canadian citizens like him have access to the US without a visa for a limited time, surely his airport layover wasn’t measured in months. Why would a lawful Canadian be deported? [/QUOTE] Because he was suspected of being a member of al Qaeda who was entering the US to commit acts of terrorism. Also, the Canadian government was under the mistaken impression Arar had permanently left Canada. So it does make some sense that the when the US was informed that he has permanently left Canada that they would not send him back there. [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/world/americas/19canada.html?pagewanted=2&\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/world/americas/19canada.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1) ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/71 "2008-06-13T06:05:47Z")
[QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] Well a lawful Canadian, with lawful access to the US, was sent to Syria to be tortured. Amendment 4, and Amendment 8 [/QUOTE] That is extremely vague. And I already addressed that there is no conceivable way the 8th Amendment was violated because the cruel and unusual punishment clause only applies to post-conviction treatment. You are also wrong about the 4th amendment. If it is seriously your contention that the 4th Amendment was violated, can you give some specifics? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/72 "2008-06-13T06:09:54Z")
I think you are under the mistaken impression that just because you think an act is morally wrong or even if something is considered outrageously morally wrong by nearly everyone that that act is unconstitional or otherwise illegal. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/73 "2008-06-13T06:12:42Z")
No, and thank goodness we have so many hard-headed and realistic people who keep us from dreaming. So very many. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/74 "2008-06-13T06:14:34Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Because he was suspected of being a member of al Qaeda who was entering the US to commit acts of terrorism. Also, the Canadian government was under the mistaken impression Arar had permanently left Canada. So it does make some sense that the when the US was informed that he has permanently left Canada that they would not send him back there. [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/world/americas/19canada.html?pagewanted=2&\_r=1](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/world/americas/19canada.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1) [/QUOTE] from your own link > [@](#): > > Similarly, American officials denied Mr. Arar’s requests to speak with the Canadian Consulate in New York, a violation of international agreements. > > Evidence presented to the commission, said Paul J. J. Cavalluzzo, its lead counsel, showed that the F.B.I. continued to keep its Canadian counterparts in the dark even while an American jet was carrying Mr. Arar to Jordan. The panel found that American officials “believed — quite correctly — that, if informed, the Canadians would have serious concerns about the plan to remove Mr. Arar to Syria.” Why would they do that unless they wanted to send him to Syria for cruel and unusual punishment? Btw your own cite shows his international rights were violated. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/75 "2008-06-13T06:19:45Z")
[QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] from your own link Why would they do that unless they wanted to send him to Syria for cruel and unusual punishment? [/quote] Once again, cruel and unusual punishment has a very specific meaning, it only applies post-conviction. What happened to Arar cannot be cruel and unusual punishment. > [@](#): > > Btw your own cite shows his international rights were violated. It only shows that the agreement may have been violated. Is this agreement self-executing? Does it confer individual rights? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/76 "2008-06-13T06:30:40Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Does it confer individual rights? [/QUOTE] You tell me. He was personally denied access to speak to the Canadian Consulate, and this was a violation of international agreement. If it isn’t a right what is it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/77 "2008-06-13T06:36:31Z")
Really, you either believe in human rights, or you don’t. If you do, you believe that everyone…every single navel-bearing one of us…has those rights, whether or not you fear or despise them. They got 'em. And any government that denies those rights to any person, citizen or no, is not legitimate. Truth, justice, and the American way. A radical idea then, and still is. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/78 "2008-06-13T06:48:16Z")
[QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] You tell me. He was personally denied access to speak to the Canadian Consulate, and this was a violation of international agreement. If it isn’t a right what is it? [/QUOTE] Look at Medellin v. Texas and Sanchez-Llamas v. Oregon and Breard v.Greene, then address my questions. > [@elucidator](#): > > Really, you either believe in human rights, or you don’t. If you do, you believe that everyone…every single navel-bearing one of us…has those rights, whether or not you fear or despise them. They got 'em. And any government that denies those rights to any person, citizen or no, is not legitimate. > > Truth, justice, and the American way. A radical idea then, and still is. Do you want a vague concept like human rights to have the force of law? Who decides what is meant by human rights? What percentage of governments throughout history were/are legitimate by your human rights standard? Can you list (being specific) what is covered by human rights? Where do these rights come from? Do they exist independently of human understanding or are they a creation of humans? ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/79 "2008-06-13T06:52:03Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I think you are under the mistaken impression that just because you think an act is morally wrong or even if something is considered outrageously morally wrong by nearly everyone that that act is unconstitional or otherwise illegal. [/QUOTE] Are you saying that you don’t have a problem with the administration using its discretion to act in ways that are “morally wrong” or “outrageously morally wrong” so long as they don’t violate the Constitution or run afoul of a statute (you apparently don’t have any problem with treaty violations, even though treaties have substantially the same legal standing as statutes)? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692/80 "2008-06-13T06:56:51Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] …Do you want a vague concept like human rights to have the force of law? …Do they exist independently of human understanding or are they a creation of humans? [/QUOTE] We got this Constitution thing we can sort of use. Far from perfect, but one helluva first draft. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-bush-gitmo-prisoners-have-rights/452692.md?page=5)