# Fuck you, Christian Evangelists! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 24, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148 "2003-06-24T22:01:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/321 "2003-07-04T18:54:51Z")
But it’s not fighting ignorance, unfortunately. It’s giving a platform away and encouraging more of the same. I’m telling you, as **vanilla** pointed out earlier on, it’s easy to believe what’s tauted as true when that’s ALL you want to hear. From the folks you trust. Not anyone else. So, they’re not going to listen to anyone outside of their approved/accepted system. I didn’t and it took me forever to even begin to understand that I wasn’t even thinking for myself to begin with. I doubt letting statements being parrotted over a MB is requiring cogent thought. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/322 "2003-07-04T18:57:35Z")
Guin: Which article was that? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/323 "2003-07-04T18:58:07Z")
Why go to a pro-Mormon site? Because, dearie, it’s called a primary source! You go right to the source-the original, not what one sites SAYS that the Book of Mormon says! I mean, d’uh, why would they lie about one of their beliefs? That doesn’t make common sense. **Monty** , what are these sites she’s linking to? Since they aren’t from the Mormons, why does she claim they are? Perhaps you aren’t a liar. Perhaps you’re just a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/324 "2003-07-04T19:04:57Z")
The one about Harry Potter and Satanism. She got an e-mail glurge that quoted it, and believed it. I don’t think she’s a liar, but I think she’s very naive, and close minded, and afraid to actually read what we site, for fear we’re going to “corrupt” her. I think it’s sad. Seriously, **His** , we are NOT trying to corrupt you. Or trying to make you agree with us. We just want you to start using ORIGINAL SOURCES. If I were to start a rant on whatever church you go to, and used say, “Roman Catholic Appologetics Online”, to get my info on your church, would that be a good source? No. However, if I went say, to your denomination’s official site, and got stuff that I felt I disagreed with, then that would be correct. You aren’t disagreeing with Mormonism or Catholicism, but what these sites TELL you. And these sites have an agenda to push their own ideas. Next time, just GO to a pro-whatever site, and pick out what YOU PERSONALLY disagree with. Not what Jack Chick disagrees with, or what a disgruntled ex-whatever disagrees with. That’s ALL. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/325 "2003-07-04T19:08:11Z")
**Monty** , on the PP site, **H4E** posted an article from the Onion in a Harry Potter thread. It was an obvious parody about how Satanism was “on the rise” among children who read the HP books. It contained absurd quotes and anecdotes. His said she received it in an e-mail but it’s amazing that she couldn’t tell it was satire. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/326 "2003-07-04T19:11:37Z")
Another analogy I thought of-going to an Anti-Mormon site for info about Mormonism is like going to Pepsi for info about Coke. If you insist though on going to the anti site, go to the pro site first, THEN the anti site, and compare and contrast. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/327 "2003-07-04T19:16:41Z")
Guin: As you’ve guessed, they’re sites that someone else uses to show how bad & evil we are and how we worship the devil (when, in fact, as you know, we don’t) along with worshipping Christ. At my university, if I were to submit something purporting that I quoted a primary source when I had actually quoted that from the secondary source, I could get expelled. If I actually did go to the primary sources and concluded the opposite of what they showed, I wouldn’t get expelled; just flunked. Quoting the secondary resource is permitted, provided one does it properly: “The Little Pig reported the Big Bad Wolf threatened to blow the pig’s house down” (Doe, J., in Conflict in the Animal Kingdom, quoting Pig, L. _Diaries of a Suidae_, p. 72). [on preview] Thanks, DtC! Well, I’m not amazed now that I’ve come to the conclusion I posted above. [also on preview] Guin: She just said she gave me quotes from original sources. She did not and she knows damn well she didn’t. That’s not just a mistake of ignorance; it’s a willful and intentional lie. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/328 "2003-07-04T19:20:59Z")
BTW, did you notice how quick she beat feet when I asked her a simple question about one of those primary sources? As I said above, afraid to even think. Oh, and thanks to Guin also for explaining the Onion thing. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/329 "2003-07-04T19:26:11Z")
p.s. Her last posting which includes quotes also has ellipsis. Those aren’t her ellipses. They’re those of the person from whom she quoted it without attribution. Of course, those works she’s actually quoting are copyrighted, but what’s one more lie from her? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/330 "2003-07-04T19:51:39Z")
Guin: The “quote” from McConkie is likely from [The Watchman Expositor and - The Virgin Birth of Christ.](http://www.watchman.org/lds/virgin.htm) The Watchman Expositor say this about themselves: > [@](#): > > Watchman Fellowship is an independent Christian research and apologetics ministry focusing on new religious movements, cults, the occult and the New Age. We serve the Christian and secular community as a resource for cult education, counselling, and non-coercive intervention. > _from [http://www.watchman.org/about.htm](http://www.watchman.org/about.htm)_ Here’s what they have to say about deception (bolding by Monty): > [@](#): > > When deception, control, and fraud are present, a person’s freedom of choice is undermined. **It is always right to publicly and privately expose these practices.** The one exposing error or abuse has the responsibility to be accurate. > _from [http://www.watchman.org/about.htm](http://www.watchman.org/about.htm)_ They also think that Covey is using _The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People_ as a dishonest scheme to trick people into Mormonism ([http://www.watchman.org/lds/coveyparadigmsuccess.htm](http://www.watchman.org/lds/coveyparadigmsuccess.htm)). It’s quite a tortuous read. Please forgive me if you do read it and get a migraine. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/331 "2003-07-04T19:58:29Z")
I wonder. . . has anyone seen **His4Ever** and Ann Coulter together at the same time? Their styles of deliberate misquotation and distortion of the facts seem awfully similar. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/332 "2003-07-04T19:58:35Z")
I forgot to quote the copyright notice from the Watchman Expositor site: > [@](#): > > © Copyright 2000 Watchman Fellowship, Inc… All rights reserved. You’ll note, of course, that I did properly attribute each of my quotes from it. The reason I say that H4E’s “quote” is likely from there is because of the way I entered her “quote” into my search engine: I included the ellpsis. Sloppy, H4E, very sloppy of you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/333 "2003-07-04T20:02:59Z")
gobear: That’s funny! Not nearly as funny as my fictional citation example…“Suidae” indeed! ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/334 "2003-07-05T00:09:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*My understanding is that one must do as you’ve said, accept Jesus as Savior, believing He shed His blood for your sins and rose the third day. It’s a personal relationship, a trust in His sacrifice on your behalf, not just a mental exercise. You mention the Mormons doing this, but is it the same Jesus? They believe different things about Him. \*\* Ah, I see- kind of like how the “Jesus” you worship is really a demon of genocide and torture. > [@](#): > > \*\* Are these theological irrelevancies to you? \*\* “Knock, and it shall be opened to you.” If someone wants a personal relationship with God, why can’t they just ask? Why do they have to sort through a theological labyrinth? His4Ever, if I told you right now that I wanted to have a personal relationship with Christ, what would you tell me to do? > [@](#): > > \*\* They don’t remain in adultery, homosexuality, theivery, murder, etc. \*\* What does this have to do with Mormons? Are you suggesting that they’re murderous homosexual thieves? > [@](#): > > \*\*Also, those who have accepted Him most generally do and should believe the Bible is His word, but yet I find myself constantly debating with other Christians as to what it says. \*\* So people who disagree with you aren’t real Christians? What does this have to do with accepting Jesus? > [@](#): > > \*\* I’ve been told that no matter how much you polish a t–d it’s still a turd. \*\* Maybe so, but the polishing sure does get rid of those hyphens, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/335 "2003-07-05T00:19:00Z")
**His4Ever** , your statement “It’s a personal relationship, a trust in His sacrifice on your behalf, not just a mental exercise,” and the implication that while individual Catholics and Mormons might, possibly, by a wide and thin stretch of the imagination be Christians by _ **your** _ standards, which are yours, not God’s can just as easily be applied to people sitting in Baptist churches or Fundamentalist churches of any stripe. You said, > [@](#): > > Also, I get the impression from many I talk to that once a person does accept Christ, it doesn’t matter how they live or what they do. That’s not right, because knowing Christ changed and changes people. They don’t remain in adultery, homosexuality, theivery [sic], murder, etc. All right, how did your behaviour change? In Matther 7:16-20 Jesus said, > [@](#): > > 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. . I believe you’ll recognize the verse which follows – you’ve certainly cited it often enough. The fruits you have born here, regardless of your intentions, are not appetizing ones. You have shown and sewn hatred, contempt, legalism, condemnation, and lies. The latter may not have originated with you, but you have spread them and continue to do so. You have _ **never** _ shown one drop of mercy or compassion on this board or on the other board I once shared with you. Indeed, you called those who show mercy traitors to Christ. Now, may God have mercy on my soul, I am tempted to judge you as you have judged others. You say you have a personal relationship with Christ and you have His peace in your heart. By your words, by your own user name, you say you are His for ever, yet you persist in _driving people away_ from the love and mercy which you have been shown. Oh yes, I forgot myself. In your view, mercy is traitorous. Is it so offensive to you that others who do not believe a carbon copy of what you believe cannot be Christians? Are others sins worthy of so much more contempt than yours? Do you even in truth believe you sin? You only admit to it when your feet are held to the fire. Who do you serve, woman? When you say someone is not a Christian, cannot be a Christian because their faith takes a different form, who do you serve? When you condemn a person for falling in love or acting on loneliness as you have done, who do you serve? When you condemn a person to eternal torture and damnation for being forced away from Christianity because of the actions of people like you, _who do you serve?_ I have been accused of not being judgemental enough. Now, it would seem, I have judged. The love which I believe Christ requires me to hold in my heart, treacherous though that love may be, has been temporarily replaced by rage. You omitted malice and gossip from your list of sins, **His4Ever** , but then again, you usually do, even though St. Paul lists them right up there with the fornication you’re so fond of condemning when others do it. If you are transformed by your faith, I pray God will spare me your form of transformation. I see nothing of you in public to aspire to. Compassion, apparently, is beneath you, as is kindness. I quoted James to you earlier, and I’ll do so once again, this time James 2:18-20: > [@](#): > > Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” I say, “I can’t see your faith if you don’t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds.” > > Do you still think it’s enough just to believe that there is one God? Well, even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror! Fool! When will you ever learn that faith that does not result in good deeds is useless? “Useless”, by the way, is also translated as “dead” in some versions. While I realize you say you have other intentions, your faith has not resulted in good deeds. One more quote from Christ, Himself, this time from Matthew 18:3-7 > [@](#): > > I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. > And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. > Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! **His4Ever** , you have spread lies about the Catholic church and about the Mormon church. You have done so despite being told many times by those who have firsthand knowledge of such things. You have made Christianity appear bitter, hateful, and rooted in harsh judgement while condeming the same mercy Christ extended you. This time, your fears are right – I am attacking you. I’m attacking you so that you will not continue to harm my faith by your deeds. I am genuinely sorry it has come to this. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/336 "2003-07-05T00:24:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*I know where you both are coming from – but you are failing to choose your battles. And so you get the (false) image of being haters and bigots among people here, and your witness goes unregarded. \*\* I asked you a question, Polycarp. Is His4Ever a bigot, or isn’t she? His4Ever opposes equal rights for homosexuals. She also doggedly believes and disseminates the lies of hate literature about Mormons and Catholics, despite having repeatedly heard firsthand rebuttals from Mormons and Catholics who state that they simply do not hold the beliefs which have been attributed to them. You have said that the image of His4Ever as a bigot is a false one, a misconception arising more from the style of her posts than the content. Could you explain how this could possibly be the case? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/337 "2003-07-05T00:35:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Of course, this is the woman who took an Onion article seriously. \*\* As I’ve said before, the behavior of some (but by no means all) FC’s is strikingly reminiscent of the Junior Mints test. His4Ever can’t understand sarcasm or satire. How could she possibly understand the Bible metaphorically, or even play the “what if” game well enough to ponder, “what if I’m wrong?” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/338 "2003-07-05T00:56:13Z")
I would not call her a deliberate bigot. I would call her ignorant and close-minded. The people like **His** have driven me away from my faith, Catholicism (people like Rick Santorum, for example). Well, I think I’ll eventually give Unitarian-Universalism a try. (Sorry, **Poly** , **Siege** , I’d try the Anglican church, but as a cultural Irish Catholic, I just keep thinking of my ancestors rolling in their graves if I joined the Church of England!) 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/339 "2003-07-05T00:59:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*I would not call her a deliberate bigot. I would call her ignorant and close-minded. \*\* Er… as opposed to all the knowledgeable, open-minded people who become bigots after careful deliberation? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/340 "2003-07-05T01:19:41Z")
**big-ot** _From American Heritage Dictionary:_ One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. _From Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary:_ A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion. It’s hard to see where **H4E** misses by these definitions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148.md?page=18)