# Fuck you, Christian Evangelists! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 24, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148 "2003-06-24T22:01:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/361 "2003-07-05T14:37:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > \*\*Seems rather capricious, but I suppose the best one can do is hope that their way is the proper way. Maybe God’s way is similar to that of **H4e**. I hope not, because it seems rather bizarre and beyond what seems logical, but if it is, then I must try my best to understand such a deity’s logic and follow it as well as I can. \*\* So, nothing your god has done or will do will stop you from following him, because he is a god? I think that throwing all morals and ethics out the window in favor of a “Might makes Right” kind of philosophy is wrong any way you look at it, myself. Is there nothing that your god can do that would cause you to say, “I know that you exist, but I can no longer follow you.”? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/362 "2003-07-05T15:24:28Z")
Czarcasm: I think that’s the exact mentality of those who refuse to think for themselves on the issue. After DtC & Guin explained the Onion fiasco, I checked the thread and the individual concerned (what an ironic word) essentially responded with, “I don’t care what the facts are! Potter books are evil!” I for one don’t care if anyone evangelizes or preaches their faith, provided, of course, that they don’t go around spouting lies about other faiths. Isn’t that simple. The one “missionary experience” of my life required no preaching on my part. My friend who converted did so based on my actions, not my rhetoric. I really don’t see why that concept’s so hard for those groups to understand. Wait a second, maybe I do. That method requires thinking for oneself and acting like a decent human being towards everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/363 "2003-07-05T15:27:05Z")
Actually, my friend converted based on what he believed was the truth. My actions merely supported that. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/364 "2003-07-05T16:09:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\ ***His4ever** , I found this cite for you, by the LDS, what do you think about it? > [So it can be said that Jesus and Lucifer _were_ brothers, in the sense of both being spiritually begotten by the Father, but it is a misrepresentation to say so without giving the contextual background. Whatever similarities in background exist between Jesus and Satan pale compared to the differences. Jesus is the Beloved and Chosen, who is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh.](http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/brother_satan.htm) > > \*\* Hmm, I find it…interesting, **Jersey** Especially this statement: > [@](#): > > We believe that God begat or created the spirits of Jesus, Lucifer, and all of the human family as his children. I don’t happen to believe that Jesus was created or that there was ever a time that He didn’t exist. John 8:58, 1 John 5:7 (KJV), Genesis 1:26. Nor do I believe in our pre existence in a spirit form before our births. Your thoughts, **Jersey?** To whom it may concern: Once again I see you arguing about the hateful God that I represent when all I attempt to do is share what the Bible says. My faith says it’s the word of God, you don’t accept it, fine. I’m tired of arguing with you. If I’ve misrepresented Him, then I’ll ask His forgiveness. All I can do is go by what He says in His word, which reveals He’s a God of both love and wrath. Some people can’t accept that. You think you know me and know my motives and that I’m a deliberate liar. That’s your privilege. But you do not, in my estimation know me or my motives. It’s true I’m not a great debator or defender of the faith. But I feel I still must try. The mods might as well close this thread, it’s futile and going nowhere imho. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/365 "2003-07-05T16:19:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\* The mods might as well close this thread, it’s futile and going nowhere imho. \*\* Rather egotistical statement, no? You didn’t originate the thread. You just don’t like how it’s going. If you don’t like it, stay out of it. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/366 "2003-07-05T16:28:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Siege \* > \*\ ***His4Ever** , your statement “It’s a personal relationship, a trust in His sacrifice on your behalf, not just a mental exercise,” and the implication that while individual Catholics and Mormons might, possibly, by a wide and thin stretch of the imagination be Christians by _ **your** _ standards, which are yours, not God’s can just as easily be applied to people sitting in Baptist churches or Fundamentalist churches of any stripe. > > You said, > > All right, how did your behaviour change? In Matther 7:16-20 Jesus said, . I believe you’ll recognize the verse which follows – you’ve certainly cited it often enough. > > The fruits you have born here, regardless of your intentions, are not appetizing ones. You have shown and sewn hatred, contempt, legalism, condemnation, and lies. The latter may not have originated with you, but you have spread them and continue to do so. You have _ **never** _ shown one drop of mercy or compassion on this board or on the other board I once shared with you. Indeed, you called those who show mercy traitors to Christ. > > Now, may God have mercy on my soul, I am tempted to judge you as you have judged others. You say you have a personal relationship with Christ and you have His peace in your heart. By your words, by your own user name, you say you are His for ever, yet you persist in _driving people away_ from the love and mercy which you have been shown. Oh yes, I forgot myself. In your view, mercy is traitorous. > > Is it so offensive to you that others who do not believe a carbon copy of what you believe cannot be Christians? Are others sins worthy of so much more contempt than yours? Do you even in truth believe you sin? You only admit to it when your feet are held to the fire. > > Who do you serve, woman? When you say someone is not a Christian, cannot be a Christian because their faith takes a different form, who do you serve? When you condemn a person for falling in love or acting on loneliness as you have done, who do you serve? When you condemn a person to eternal torture and damnation for being forced away from Christianity because of the actions of people like you, _who do you serve?_ > > I have been accused of not being judgemental enough. Now, it would seem, I have judged. The love which I believe Christ requires me to hold in my heart, treacherous though that love may be, has been temporarily replaced by rage. > > You omitted malice and gossip from your list of sins, **His4Ever** , but then again, you usually do, even though St. Paul lists them right up there with the fornication you’re so fond of condemning when others do it. If you are transformed by your faith, I pray God will spare me your form of transformation. I see nothing of you in public to aspire to. Compassion, apparently, is beneath you, as is kindness. I quoted James to you earlier, and I’ll do so once again, this time James 2:18-20: > > “Useless”, by the way, is also translated as “dead” in some versions. While I realize you say you have other intentions, your faith has not resulted in good deeds. > > One more quote from Christ, Himself, this time from Matthew 18:3-7 > **His4Ever** , you have spread lies about the Catholic church and about the Mormon church. You have done so despite being told many times by those who have firsthand knowledge of such things. You have made Christianity appear bitter, hateful, and rooted in harsh judgement while condeming the same mercy Christ extended you. This time, your fears are right – I am attacking you. I’m attacking you so that you will not continue to harm my faith by your deeds. I am genuinely sorry it has come to this. > > CJ \*\* I see, sighh, that you don’t know or understand me as I don’t understand many of you. I haven’t condemned anyone person, I don’t have that right. I’ve simply repeated…no forget it. Why bother? I’m tired. I’m sorry that I can’t get across my concerns without making everyone angry. I just can’t agree with everyone here. I’ve got more I can say but feel like I’m beating my head on a wall and I doubt I’m going to change anyone’s opinion of me. See you later. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/367 "2003-07-05T17:01:04Z")
Didn’t you have something better to do, His4Ever? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/368 "2003-07-05T17:02:45Z")
BTW, His4Ever; nobody’s asked you to agree with everyone here. They’ve merely asked for you to do two very simple things, two things that a Christian should have no problem with: Learn of what you speak, and don’t tell lies. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/369 "2003-07-05T17:07:45Z")
Twelve hours and a bit of sanity later, I see that I’m spouting the fundie version of Pascal’s Wager. Somehow, I’ve managed to do this without recognizing it three or four times in the past six months. My apologies. **Czarcasm** , aside from the fact that I am not currently following any deity, there is one thing said deity could say that would make me even stop wanting to follow it. That would be, “Even if you don’t follow me, you don’t go to hell.” (Yes, I’m easily motivated by hellfire and brimstone. How quaint, I know.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/370 "2003-07-05T17:15:47Z")
1. **Siege** speaks for me, too – and eloquently. 2. **lel** , you are completely within your rights to ask for cites. I am going to decline your request, because I have been treading vry close to the line on the rule here against doing things that would cause interboard wars, and fulfilling your reasonable request would IMHO put me well across that line. You and I have belonged to three boards in common; if you go to the other one which has more to do with Italian takeout food than with coal (which, BTW, I have terminated all affiliation with), and look in the two forums where you might find the Wall Street Journal and lettuce, you will be easily able to find the threads in question and can form your own judgment. I will readily admit to some overreacting in response to accusations thrown at groups I belong to. 3. Also to **lel** : In direct response to **Ben** ’s question, I gave my impressions of where **HiseEver** is coming from. I admit they were slanted by her ready willingness to agree with posts condemning my church and its doctrinal stances. I’ve gone against the _Weltanschaaung_ here a number of times by saying that I understand that from her own perspective, **His** is doing precisely what she believe she is called to do by her Lord, and deserves not condemnation for preaching hate but critiquing for horrendously poor technique in her witnessing. Those are the best answers I can give to your very very valid and probing questions. If you like, we can continue this discussion, either here or in PM. 1. **His4Ever** , I have said that I do not believe you are intentionally purveying evil, and I reaffirm that. But, since things have come to this head, I respectfully ask that you answer, here, a series of questions: A. Do you think that I am involved in apostasy? B. Do you think that I am spreading false teachings? C. Do you accept the idea that I am attempting to follow the commands of Jesus Christ as they are set forth in the Bible? D. Do you think that my motivation in saying what I do about Christianity is to “tickle people’s ears with what they want to hear”? E. Do you think that my political views are “verging on treason”? These are all things of which I have recently been accused, either directly or by having the accusation leveled against groups that I had previously stated I belong to. In some but not all cases you had posted agreement with the OP which by implication made that accusation. Therefore I feel justified in putting you on the spot and requiring to know if you meant to accuse me as well. Whether or not you agree with the accusations, thank you for clarifying your position. As I’ve said before, I mean no ill against you, regardless of how you may feel about me ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/371 "2003-07-05T17:46:07Z")
**Poly** , I also suspect that she’s just primarily trying to affirm her own church and its doctrinal stances, but I’ll wait until a response to your further questions has been posted. As to the above cites, I really see her more as affirming her own church and its stances rather than trying to condemn others, but since you’re asking her, it is best of me to refrain from putting forth a strong opinion until some response is given by her. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/372 "2003-07-05T17:48:04Z")
I’m also with **Siege**. Sadly, **His** , you are NOT telling us what the BIBLE says. The BIBLE does not say that Catholics worship saints. The BIBLE does not say that Mormons are a cult. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/373 "2003-07-05T17:50:56Z")
Oh, and BTW, all that page seems to be saying, **Jersey** , is that if you consider God the Father, the creator of everyone, all the angels and saints, then yeah, TECHNICALLY, he can be called the “father” of Satan. But that just means he can also be the father of Stan. And since God is OUR Father, and Christ’s, wouldn’t that make Christ OUR brother? Sort of? It’s just playing with semantics, that’s all. Did I get that right, **Monty**? I was always taught that God was everyone’s Father. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/374 "2003-07-05T17:57:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*So, nothing your god has done or will do will stop you from following him, because he is a god? I think that throwing all morals and ethics out the window in favor of a “Might makes Right” kind of philosophy is wrong any way you look at it, myself. > Is there nothing that your god can do that would cause you to say, “I know that you exist, but I can no longer follow you.”? \*\* This is, to me, the scariest thing that Christians like **JerseyDiamond** and **His4ever** can say; (paraphrased) we have to follow what God says because He’s **GOD**. Especially if those orders from God don’t make sense (for example, homosexuality). But not every bothering to question when they make no sense is the scariest thing of all! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/375 "2003-07-05T18:08:03Z")
Got it in one, Guin. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/376 "2003-07-05T18:41:21Z")
This exemplifies to me, why folks will never get through to people like **H4E** … A direct biblical quote taken from her on this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&action=showpost&postid=3638190#3638190), entitled **Jesus is God?** in Great Debates: Colossians 2:8-9- “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” See, she sees our attempts at rational, reasoned discourse as being corrupting her after the world, instead of enlightening her to things like tolerance and love. That runs in direct juxtaposition to her belief of simply following Christ, and Christ only, through nothing BUT His word. That’s all she needs. Not our immorality through misdirection, deceit and apathy. To her and her ilk, that is the ONLY authority, ever. You couldn’t ever persuade them otherwise, for presumably, we personify all that is _evil_. End of discussion to them. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/377 "2003-07-05T19:02:02Z")
OK, **Someone’s4Ever** , I’ll keep it simple. [ul][li]When you say a group of people is condemned does that include the individuals within that group?[/li]A yes or no will suffice to this answer. [li]Why do you continue to say things about the Catholic and Mormon faiths which you have been told repeatedly are factually incorrect by current followers of those faiths?[/li][li]Do you or do you not think that there may be people who call themselved Baptists or other forms of Fundamentalist Christians who lack a personal relationship with Christ?[/li][li]If the answer to that last question is “Yes”, is it as reasonable to say Baptists or Fundamentalists are not Christians? If no, why is it reasonable to say Catholics or Mormons are not Christians?[/li][li]In what way has your faith transformed your life?[/li][li]Would you choose to become a Christian based what you have posted here? Why or why not?[/li][li]When you listed the sins referred to in 1 Corinthians 6:11, why did you omit slander? [/li][li]Are you aware that your actions in this thread meet the definition of slander?[/li]While we’re on the subject of 1 Corinthians, [li]How do you feel about 1 Corinthians 7:39-40? Does it apply to you?[/li] Most importantly: [li]Who do you serve?[/ul][/li]I’ll repeat the paragraph which applies to that question from yesterday’s post, changing the words to reflect your statement that “I haven’t condemned anyone person, I don’t have that right.” > [@](#): > > Who do you serve, woman? When you say someone is not a Christian, cannot be a Christian because their faith takes a different form, who do you serve? When you say people are condemned for falling in love or acting on loneliness as you have done, who do you serve? When you you say people are condemned to eternal torture and damnation for being forced away from Christianity because of the actions of people like you, who do you serve? You may not condemn individuals, but you are in the habit of condemning whole groups of people without taking the trouble to find out anything about them. I admit you’ve been asked a lot of questions here, and I don’t expect you to answer all of mine. I _do_ want an answer to “Who do you serve?” because right now, I genuinely don’t know your answer to that one. Some of the questions **Polycarp** and I have asked you are hard, and they will require thought. However, if you are unwilling to put the effort required into answering them, what does that say of how highly you value your faith? CJ ---
**Author:** ![HJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7993a0/32.png) [@HJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HJay)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/378 "2003-07-05T19:10:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Siege \* > \*\*If **His4Ever** ’s beliefs are right, then I, too will choose to burn in hell for all eternity for two reasons. First, most of the people I love most will be there, including my father (agnostic), possibly my mother (considers herself Christian, but I’ve no idea if she has a personal relationship with Christ), my baby brother (agnostic), my other brother and his family (Catholic), and 6 of my closest friends (1 nominal Christian, but no personal relationship with Christ; 1 Catholic; 2 homosexuals, one of whom is Catholic; 2 Wiccans who were Fundamentalist Christians). **Polycarp** and his wife are in the clear by her standards, but somehow I think he might opt out of heaven, too. Second, the behaviour of the God she describes is offensive and obnoxious enough that I will not worship such an entity, and I’ve told Him so on more than one occaision. Then again, if she’s right, I’m probably damned by that last statement of mine anyway, and if not by that one, then I am sure there are other things I can be condemned for, including my disbelief in Biblican inerrancy and my pro-choice politics. > > **lel** , I understand where you’re coming from, and I have struggled with it during the past 6 months myself, as you might have gathered. For me, the bottom line has come down to this: if what **His4Ever** believes about God is right, if He is merciless and judgemental, then I cannot believe in Him, and, even if I claimed to, I would only be mouthing words out of fear. If she is right, most of what I believe and most of my life is a lie, and her version of the Truth will kill me as surely as a bullet to the brain. > > My faith and my experience (including something which happened not long after my last post), tells me I am right, but you would hardly expect me to write otherwise. My beliefs are what they are, and I will accept God’s judgement upon them. If they are wrong, at least I have erred out of a sincere, soul-rooted desire to do right, rather than being right out of fear. > > Peace be with all of you, > CJ \*\* I realize it may not be kosher of me to do this on this board, but permit me, please, this opportunity to say . . . WAY TA GO, SIEGE! You speak with beauty, power, and eloquence, and I’m proud to know you. In all sincerity, had there been more Christians like you around twenty years ago, I never would have left the fold. (signed) –One of the above-mentioned ex-fundamentalists ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/379 "2003-07-05T19:19:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Freyr_ > This is, to me, the scariest thing that Christians like JerseyDiamond and His4ever can say; (paraphrased) we have to follow what God says because He’s GOD. Especially if those orders from God don’t make sense (for example, homosexuality). But not every bothering to question when they make no sense is the scariest thing of all! Better to safely not question at all and just believe rather than question and end up not believing. Questioning, while not a vice, isn’t always a good thing. Believing is a virtue. I’m definitely in the wrong place. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/380 "2003-07-05T19:28:53Z")
Since this thread is 8 pages long, could we just start a new thread to pit His4Ever? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148.md?page=20)