# Fuck you, Christian Evangelists! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 24, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148 "2003-06-24T22:01:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/161 "2003-06-28T16:37:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lite \* > \*\*FWIW, there were’t any Jews or Christians in the bombing of the WTC either time. \*\* And Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh were Christians. There aren’t any Muslims in the IRA, after all. For that matter, there weren’t any Muslims (that I know of) helping Rudolph evade the FBI. Hell, how many Muslims were involved in the Holocaust? (As perpetrators, that is.) Seems to me that Hitler ranted about Jesus, not Mohammed, being a super-Nazi. > [@](#): > > \*\* > DEATH TO ALLAH!!! \*\* I take it your screen name refers to your brain mass? So, can we call this guy a bigot, or should we save that word for a really, really special occasion? How about “nincompoop”? If we call him a nincompoop, are we diluting the word? Would that be insulting to all the victims of _real_ nincompoops out there? ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/162 "2003-06-28T17:38:34Z")
“Death to Allah” is just stupidity. “Death to Muslims” would be bigotry, sure. You better check with him and clarify, but you won’t find me defending him in either case. That’s just nastiness. Ben, I’ll have to think more about the strict definition of “bigot” but it does seem to me that if you apply it everywhere you want to apply it, you end up with a country that’s more than half bigoted, and a world that’s much more so. Certainly I’d qualify if you knew all my positions. I’m not much bothered by that. But I won’t fight your usage anymore; have at it. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/163 "2003-06-28T18:11:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*One could use the exact same argument to defend Fred Phelps. Sorry, but I don’t go for that kind of extreme moral relativism. The fact is that either His4Ever’s deity is evil, or the word “evil” is so hopelessly undefinable that we might as well take it out of the dictionary. \*\* Exactly how did this thread degenerate into a “His4ever worships a demon” rant? I **do not** worship a demon. I worship the God of the Bible and I believe what He says about salvation and about the hot issue of homosexuality and anything else. If you want to disagree with me, go right ahead. This thread isn’t about homosexuality so I’m not going to get into all that. It’s also not about my personal life or past, either. The God I worship isn’t evil just because you don’t happen to like what he says about something, **Ben**. I read His word, see what it says about certain things and I stand by it, no matter how unpopular that may be. Should I believe men or God? Your calling my Lord evil and a demon reminds of of when the religious leaders of Jesus’ day said he was casting out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of the devils. In other word, He was accused of casting demons out by Satan’s power. \*Matthew 12:22-28 22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.\* **Ben** , this is just my humble opinion, but I think you should be careful about calling the God of the Bible evil and a demon because that’s who I worship, regardless of your opinion. Of course, you’re free to continue to call Him whatever you wish, it won’t make it true. **E-Sabbath** , there’s really no point into going into the homosexual thing right now as we’ve gone over and over that in the past on this board. Both that issue and witchcraft are condemned by God in both old and new Testaments. These are moral things, why wouldn’t they still be valid? Witchcraft and the occult is getting into Satan’s territory, why would that be okay with God today anymore than it was then? Please see Galatians 5:19-21. Witchcraft is included in these verses that end with “they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/164 "2003-06-28T18:16:03Z")
It seems to me that there’s a certain irony to your position. You basically want “bigot” to apply only to unfashionable prejudices. Homophobia isn’t considered 100% execrable quite yet, so homophobes aren’t bigots. IIUYC, racists are bigots, because racism is widely considered unacceptable. I, meanwhile, want to use “bigot” to refer to any prejudiced person who opposes equal rights, whether it be with regard to race, sexuality, religion, or what-have-you. I want “bigot” to be an accusation with moral weight. I don’t care if your beliefs are popular or not. Popularity doesn’t excuse bigotry. You want “bigot” to be a sign not so much of morality as of moral fashion. Beliefs, however hurtful or hateful, aren’t “bigotry” until they become unfashionable. And _I’m_ the one who is diluting the moral force of the word “bigot”?!? ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/165 "2003-06-28T18:37:02Z")
Well, it’s food for thought, Ben. Before now I have wondered about conservatives who fully sign on to the Civil Rights movement – because it would be instant political death not to – but oppose more recent developments. Your statement about fashionability has some merit. > [@](#): > > I, meanwhile, want to use “bigot” to refer to any prejudiced person who opposes equal rights, whether it be with regard to race, sexuality, religion, or what-have-you. It’s the what-have-you that bothers me. Yesterday you were a bigot if you opposed equal rights for all races. Today you’re a bigot if you oppose equal rights for gay folks. (Equal rights including marriage, leading Boy Scouts, being a bishop, etc.) What’ll it be tomorrow? I do not support equal rights for all people to perform all activities. At some point I’ll bump up into your idea of a bigot. Again, oh well. As I said before, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/166 "2003-06-28T18:39:41Z")
Goodness, it’s okay to call someone’s deity a demon around here? Just imagine if someone called Allah a demon, or G-d as worshipped by Orthodox Jews, or any of the various deities worshipped by Pagans, etc. I don’t think that would be tolerated for long, so why can we get away with calling **His4ever** ’s conception of a deity a demon? As for bigots, there’s still some religious justification, however irrelevant it may be to a non-believer, that homosexual sex acts are forbidden by a certain Christian deity. Is a person opposing homosexual sex being prejudiced or trying to turn people towards their conception of a deity? IMO, it’s still a legitimate debate. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/167 "2003-06-28T18:42:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*It seems to me that there’s a certain irony to your position. > > You basically want “bigot” to apply only to unfashionable prejudices. Homophobia isn’t considered 100% execrable quite yet, so homophobes aren’t bigots. IIUYC, racists are bigots, because racism is widely considered unacceptable. > > I, meanwhile, want to use “bigot” to refer to any prejudiced person who opposes equal rights, whether it be with regard to race, sexuality, religion, or what-have-you. > > I want “bigot” to be an accusation with moral weight. I don’t care if your beliefs are popular or not. Popularity doesn’t excuse bigotry. > > You want “bigot” to be a sign not so much of morality as of moral fashion. Beliefs, however hurtful or hateful, aren’t “bigotry” until they become unfashionable. > > And _I’m_ the one who is diluting the moral force of the word “bigot”?!? \*\* What does IIUYC mean and also execrable? Look, **Ben** , I’m not going to argue with you, you’ll have to think what you want about me. Call me a bigot or whatever you want. I’m a Christian and I believe there are absolute truths. I believe in God and that the Bible is His word. If that upsets you, I’m sorry I can’t do anything about that. The truth is the truth and I’m going to believe what God says over what man and his desires say. I don’t consider myself a bigot but if that’s what you label me, so be it. And I am not against equal rights for people, but I will not support something that I perceive God has condemned. You’re free to label me however you want, God knows the truth and He knows me and my motives and thoughts more than you or anyone else. I do not care what the majority of society finds acceptable or whatever, I will stand on what God says about something. If you find that to be bigotry in your mind, you’ll just have to think that. Have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/168 "2003-06-28T19:07:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by His4Ever_ > Exactly how did this thread degenerate into a “His4ever worships a demon” rant? I do not worship a demon. Sure, that’s what he _wants_ you to think. > [@](#): > > I worship the God of the Bible and I believe what He says about salvation and about the hot issue of homosexuality and anything else. There may still be hope for her: she thinks homosexuality is “hot.” ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/169 "2003-06-28T19:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Depends on what perspective you have. Which is better, to be in danger in this life or to be in danger after you die? Yes, Christians should try to reach the Muslims for Christ. Jesus said to go unto all the world and preach the gospel to everyone, that includes Muslims. There are worses things than physical suffering and death even though it’s hard for us to realize that as long as we live in this world. Evangelists are simply doing what Jesus told His followers to do. \*\* Actually, that’s not entirely true. He is quoted as saying that, but he’s also quoted in Matthew, Chapter 6, verses 1-8 (just before the Lord’s Prayer) as saying: > [@](#): > > (KJV) > > Matthew 6:1 > Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. > > Matthew 6:2 > Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. > > Matthew 6:3 > But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: > > Matthew 6:4 > That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. > > \*\*Matthew 6:5 > And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. > > Matthew 6:6 > But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.\*\* > > Matthew 6:7 > But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. > > Matthew 6:8 > Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. Bolding mine. I wish more Christians paid attention to this, especially evangelicals of the mouthy variety. The world would be a better place, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/170 "2003-06-28T19:22:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by masonite \* > \*\*Well, it’s food for thought, Ben. Before now I have wondered about conservatives who fully sign on to the Civil Rights movement – because it would be instant political death not to – but oppose more recent developments. Your statement about fashionability has some merit. \*\* Thanks, masonite. BTW, I appreciate this conversation, even if it might be heated at times. > [@](#): > > \*\*It’s the what-have-you that bothers me. > … > I do not support equal rights for all people to perform all activities. \*\* Well, I don’t either. But to me, if you’re opposed to gay rights, you’re a bigot. That’s the best moral judgement I can make at this time. I know I’m destined to be wrong about some things, but that doesn’t mean that I have to descend into a moral relativism in which I can’t call something wrong unless I’ve first figured out which way the wind is blowing. If you don’t agree with my definition of bigot, fine. But am I really so beyond the pale in stating that people who oppose gay marriage are bigots? It’s not like I’m saying that people who watch “Spongebob Squarepants” are usurers or something. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/171 "2003-06-28T19:30:51Z")
**Ben** , **His4ever** , would you PLEASE take your little catfight to another thread or just shut the fuck up already? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/172 "2003-06-28T20:16:21Z")
_I_ think **Guin** should be having sex _right now!_ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/173 "2003-06-28T20:24:07Z")
So do I, **vanilla**. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/174 "2003-06-28T20:31:15Z")
any male dopers out there? Lets see some volunteers! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/175 "2003-06-28T20:34:05Z")
Well hot damn, I missed it when **Guin** became a mod! Congratulations **Guin!** ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/176 "2003-06-28T20:52:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > \*\*Goodness, it’s okay to call someone’s deity a demon around here? Just imagine if someone called Allah a demon, or G-d as worshipped by Orthodox Jews, or any of the various deities worshipped by Pagans, etc. I don’t think that would be tolerated for long, so why can we get away with calling **His4ever** ’s conception of a deity a demon? \*\* “All Muslims are terrorists, therefore Allah is a demon.” “Christianity is the only true religion, therefore the Hindu gods are demons.” “Wiccans are Satanists, therefore they all worship demons.” “Some Christians believe in a deity named ‘Jesus’ who tortures people for eternity, despite the fact that they love him with all their hearts, simply for making an honest mistake. They also believe that Jesus ordered rape and genocide in the past. Rape, genocide, and arbitrary, eternal torture are evil. Since the word ‘demon’ is defined as ‘an evil, supernatural entity’, Christians who worship this ‘Jesus’ are demon-worshippers. However, plenty of Christians have a radically different version of ‘Jesus’ which is not demonic.” Do you really think all those statements are equivalent? It seems to me that the only reason people don’t consider fundamentalist Christianity, as it is conceived by most FC’s, to be a demonic brainwashing cult is because Christianity is too fashionable. > [@](#): > > \*\* > As for bigots, there’s still some religious justification, however irrelevant it may be to a non-believer, that homosexual sex acts are forbidden by a certain Christian deity. Is a person opposing homosexual sex being prejudiced or trying to turn people towards their conception of a deity? IMO, it’s still a legitimate debate. \*\* Do you believe that Phelps is a bigot? I frankly don’t care how the demonolaters rationalize their oppression of others, whether it’s slavery, racism, or homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/177 "2003-06-28T20:53:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*_I_ think **Guin** should be having sex _right now!_ \*\* They’re right- you really _are_ different from the other fundamentalists! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/178 "2003-06-28T20:57:53Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by rjung \* \*\* [li]More arrogant assholeishness: the notion that followers of Islam, Buddhism, and/or Hinduism are “enslaved” by their beliefs, and by extension, Satan. “Most [evangelicals] would subscribe to Luis Bush’s generalization about Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism: ‘Satan wants to keep people as miserable as possible for as long as possible.’” What a prick!_\* \*\*[/li][/QUOTE] Guin, why should I take it to another thread? As I’ve been pointing out all along, the things I have been saying are completely relevant to this thread. Evangelicals can dish it out, but they can’t take it. They go on and on about how we need to respect their need to save people from hell, but they don’t like being preached at themselves. I’ve even had evangelicals on more than one occasion tell me outright that I have no right to voice disagreement with their arguments. Remember when Wildest Bill demanded that I try to convert my own children to Christianity? Rjung, you’re the OP. If you disagree with me on whether the debate over demon worship is actually relevant to this thread, I’ll be happy to start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/179 "2003-06-28T21:21:45Z")
This is not a comment on H4E’s deity, since I don’t know that much about her beliefs. But, with regards to evangelicals who… 1. Go into an area where other Christian missionaries/orgs are already doing good charitable work. 2. Preach in such a way as to purposely stir up rage/hostility. 3. When the backlash comes, and is directed against their converts/existing Christian orgs, they have moved on to their next target, so they’re not even there to see the backlash. 4. Purposely go into a war-zone, knowing full well that they are going to cause hostility which will most likely be directed at our troops. 5. Lie or use obfuscations in order to hide the true nature of what they are doing. 6. Do so in the name of God. These actions, when taken as a whole, are in my mind, evil. I don’t believe in demons, so I’m not going to say that they worship a demon. But these are not good people. So, I am somewhat in agreement with Ben here. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148/180 "2003-06-28T21:50:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > “All Muslims are terrorists, therefore Allah is a demon.” > > “Christianity is the only true religion, therefore the Hindu gods are demons.” > > “Wiccans are Satanists, therefore they all worship demons.” > > “Some Christians believe in a deity named ‘Jesus’ who tortures people for eternity, despite the fact that they love him with all their hearts, simply for making an honest mistake. They also believe that Jesus ordered rape and genocide in the past. Rape, genocide, and arbitrary, eternal torture are evil. Since the word ‘demon’ is defined as ‘an evil, supernatural entity’, Christians who worship this ‘Jesus’ are demon-worshippers. However, plenty of Christians have a radically different version of ‘Jesus’ which is not demonic.” > > Do you really think all those statements are equivalent? It seems to me that the only reason people don’t consider fundamentalist Christianity, as it is conceived by most FC’s, to be a demonic brainwashing cult is because Christianity is too fashionable. First off, I think that I have much to learn about other religions before evaluating them, but it’s fair to say that there are things about Christianity which may seem evil to us. Please forgive what may seem like a complete cop-out, but I don’t yet know if I can really comment on fundamentalist Christianity without bias, having been one for many years. Let me try to consider the drawbacks of fundamentalist Christianity a bit – my first instinct is to defend it due to the good parts of it that I see, even if I no longer adhere to it. (Frankly, the good parts I see about FC are primarily personal – my adherence to it as a teenager kept me from doing some stupid things, and there’s FCs who have had a positive impact on my life. As a religious philosophy, I’m not sure I’m yet ready to consider it without taking personal issues into account.) > [@](#): > > Do you believe that Phelps is a bigot? I frankly don’t care how the demonolaters rationalize their oppression of others, whether it’s slavery, racism, or homophobia. I don’t know – I find the word “bigot” to be rather loaded, and prefer not to use it. Is Phelps extraordinarily misguided? Yes. Is he, for lack of a better word, a complete fucking asshole? Sure. A bigot? I don’t know. Maybe he could change. Maybe there’s some positive thought towards homosexuals in him, although I’m not holding out hope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-christian-evangelists/184148.md?page=10)