# Fuck you Diogenes **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717 "2004-11-03T10:48:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Farmwoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8dc957/32.png) [@Farmwoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmwoman)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/81 "2004-11-04T01:43:19Z")
I make the distinction between ‘leader’ and ‘representative’, one I believe more people should consider. Kerry makes a great representative in that he ponders the desires of the people and tries to find a comfortable middle ground which will offend no one. Bush is a leader precisely because he is willing to flip the bird while following his convictions. Now, I don’t agree with many (most) of his convicitons, and this is where the whole process has led me to drinking too much wine and posting in the pit, but I voted for him because he refuses to pitch them when they become inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/82 "2004-11-04T01:45:43Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Let me give just a few examples (I could go on for days): > > Al Gore shouts that Bush “betrayed” our country. > Ted Kennedy compares the assaults at Abu Ghraib to “Saddam’s torture chambers” where thousands of men, women, and children were tortured, raped, and killed. SAre either of those assertions untrue? > [@](#): > > Do you really believe that two of the most prominent Democrats saying these is “a few liberals” being “whiny”? They weren’t being whiny, they were telling the truth. > [@](#): > > Michael Moore writes on 9/12/01Michael Moore thinks it would have been better if only Republicans had been killed. Man, talk about a colossal fucking disingenuous lie. Fuck you. > [@](#): > > This is just a “liberal” being “whiny”? No, this is you being a liar. > [@](#): > > **Disingenuous the Canine** regularly writes vicious rants against Republicans and Bush. Not against Republicand, just against Bush. > [@](#): > > You bet these are major reasons I voted for Bush again. Those are some stupid fucking reasons. > [@](#): > > And your insincere denial, like that of many liberals, is just one more reason. > > Bush didn’t defeat you. You defeated yourselves. We were just outnumbered by morons, that’s all. That’s not our fault. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/83 "2004-11-04T01:47:43Z")
> [@Farmwoman](#): > > I make the distinction between ‘leader’ and ‘representative’, one I believe more people should consider. Kerry makes a great representative in that he ponders the desires of the people and tries to find a comfortable middle ground which will offend no one. Bush is a leader precisely because he is willing to flip the bird while following his convictions. > > Now, I don’t agree with many (most) of his convicitons, and this is where the whole process has led me to drinking too much wine and posting in the pit, but I voted for him because he refuses to pitch them when they become inconvenient. Arrogantly charging into an unnecessary war to settle a personal grudge is “leadership?” You have a very low threshhold for what you expect out of a leader. ---
**Author:** ![Farmwoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8dc957/32.png) [@Farmwoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmwoman)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/84 "2004-11-04T01:50:17Z")
My threshold is actually quite high. The policy of ‘personal grudge’ comes from your war room. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/85 "2004-11-04T01:56:06Z")
> [@Farmwoman](#): > > My threshold is actually quite high. > > The policy of ‘personal grudge’ comes from your war room. Oh, so you think there _were_ WMD? You think Iraq really _was_ a threat to the US? Do you think Iraq had something to do with 9/11? What, pray tell, was the _legitimate_ reason to kill 100,000 humans in Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/86 "2004-11-04T02:00:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Or Bush either. I was calling him a bigot, but not a racial bigot. The “klan robe” was an anology for those Bush voters who keep wanting to separate themselves for Bush’s bigoted policies. I’m saying that voting for an avowed homophobe makes those who voted for him just as culpable _as if_ they had voted for a guy in a klan robe. Was there a non-“homophobe” choice, other than a 3rd party guy? Kerry says he’s against gay marriage, and would support a state constitutional amendment banning it. Can I be against federal legislation banning interracial marriage, but for state laws banning the same and not be a racist? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/87 "2004-11-04T02:02:44Z")
I like Diogenes a lot. I didn’t always. He’s like two posters in one. Diogenes is a great person and like all great people his flaws are also great. He’s my absolute favorite left-wing nutjob (and I mean that with affection.) He’s stubborn myopic and prejudicial, unpleasant and thick… and at the same time he’s also this insightful and nice guy who will sometimes listen and respond with great care and respect… And then in the next post he’ll go off raving again And the one after that he’ll be really cool again. He knows a fair bit about theology, doesn’t ever seem to hold a grudge. He’s really the only poster on this board who can make me laugh, shake my head at his stupidity, educate me with his insight, disgust me with his vitriol, make me smile with a sincere compliment, and call me a Nazi bastard… all in the same thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/88 "2004-11-04T02:08:35Z")
Damn it, **Scylla** , how can I maintain a rage on if you’re going to go and post something like that? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/89 "2004-11-04T02:10:06Z")
> [@Farmwoman](#): > > I make the distinction between ‘leader’ and ‘representative’, one I believe more people should consider. Kerry makes a great representative in that he ponders the desires of the people and tries to find a comfortable middle ground which will offend no one. Bush is a leader precisely because he is willing to flip the bird while following his convictions. > > Now, I don’t agree with many (most) of his convicitons, and this is where the whole process has led me to drinking too much wine and posting in the pit, but I voted for him because **he refuses to pitch them when they become inconvenient**. [Nor](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sirota.html) has [John](http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062003.shtml) [Kerry](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-kerryprofile16jan16,1,1416834,print.story). No bigger bird has ever been flipped in the face of opposition and terrorism than the ones John Kerry flipped when he relentlessly **led** the investigation that uncovered the Iran/Contra scandal and shut down the terrorist’s international banking institution, or when he partnered with John McCain, again against huge opposition, to put the Vietnam POW issue to rest and normalize relations with a former enemy. But you obviously didn’t pay attention to the facts and you bought into Bush’s lie that leadership has some kind of blustery, scowling cowboy face on it, as opposed to being a trait wherein the one performing it actually accomplishes worthwhile goals that benefit not only our own great nation, but the entire world, as well. Shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![Farmwoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8dc957/32.png) [@Farmwoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmwoman)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/90 "2004-11-04T02:12:50Z")
But back to the original post and your fast and loose comparisons of Hitler and Bush. While I’m no fan of revisionist history, your train of thought throughout the thread (and the ones prompting it) has me wondering what you’d think of this scenario… Hitler was spanked out of Eastern Europe and told to stay in his room until he could keep his hands to himself. The bright minds of the day wrung their hands and insisted that he should have been forced out of power, but the international contract by which all ‘nice’ nations conducted themselves decided to let him have his little slice of Rhineland as long as he played well with his neighbors. Later, when it was reported that Hitler ‘may’ have wmd and ‘may’ be aiding and abetting terrorist groups, (or ‘may’ be gassing his own populace) a polite group of international investigators shows up for a dog and pony show. After much dicking around and a parade of ultimatums from the international community, Churchill finally stands up and says ‘fuck you, Adolf. You’re too dangerous and too close and we’re putting you out, with or without unilateral support. He’s called a facist for doing it, and goes down in history as England’s most hamfisted leader ever. Like I said, I’m no fan of revisionist history, but you open yourself up to it with silly claims of Hitler\>Bush ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/91 "2004-11-04T02:15:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Was there a non-“homophobe” choice, other than a 3rd party guy? Kerry says he’s against gay marriage, and would support a state constitutional amendment banning it. Can I be against federal legislation banning interracial marriage, but for state laws banning the same and not be a racist? It’s pretty much a semantic thing with Kerry. He supports civil unions, he just doesn’t want to call it marriage. He has not advocated abrogating any substantive rights. The COTUS amendment, on the other hand, would not even permit civil unions. A vote for Bush was a vot for a candidate who wants to permanently eliminate even the chance for civil unions in any state. Yes, I know what he said about civil unions last week. His own amendment contradicts those statements. You acan’t support an amendment for prohibiting the use or sale of all alcohloic beverages and then say people should be allowed to drink beer. If that’s the way he really feels, then he needs to advocate for changing the language in the amendment. If he won’t do that, then he’s a real bigot trying to hurt gay people in a real and lasting way. Kerry’s just full of shit about the wording. That’s politics, not substance. ---
**Author:** ![lexi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lexi/32/6806_2.png) [@lexi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lexi)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/92 "2004-11-04T02:16:48Z")
Diogenes - I am on your side, and I still can’t see how people can be so blind, foolish, selfish, or just brainwashed to have voted for Bush. Now I am fearing that Canada may not be far away enough to be safe. I was re-reading “Contact” by Carl Sagan this week and he has a line in there that says: When we like them we call them Freedom Fighters, when we don’t we call them Terrorists. The USA seems incapable of seeing that to another people, such as many in the Arab world that the so called Acts of Terror may be considered to be justifiable acts in fighting for freedom. Those they call terrorists will be fighting for their rights ever more so now that Bush has been re-elected – in this war against the USA - I pray that they don’t hit Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/93 "2004-11-04T02:18:34Z")
> [@Farmwoman](#): > > But back to the original post and your fast and loose comparisons of Hitler and Bush. > While I’m no fan of revisionist history, your train of thought throughout the thread (and the ones prompting it) has me wondering what you’d think of this scenario… > > Hitler was spanked out of Eastern Europe and told to stay in his room until he could keep his hands to himself. The bright minds of the day wrung their hands and insisted that he should have been forced out of power, but the international contract by which all ‘nice’ nations conducted themselves decided to let him have his little slice of Rhineland as long as he played well with his neighbors. Later, when it was reported that Hitler ‘may’ have wmd and ‘may’ be aiding and abetting terrorist groups, (or ‘may’ be gassing his own populace) a polite group of international investigators shows up for a dog and pony show. After much dicking around and a parade of ultimatums from the international community, Churchill finally stands up and says ‘fuck you, Adolf. You’re too dangerous and too close and we’re putting you out, with or without unilateral support. He’s called a facist for doing it, and goes down in history as England’s most hamfisted leader ever. > > Like I said, I’m no fan of revisionist history, but you open yourself up to it with silly claims of Hitler\>Bush Saddam had dick. Your analogy is worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/94 "2004-11-04T02:59:12Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Do you really believe that? That people voted for Bush simply because a few liberals were whiny? I don’t buy it for a second. I think it was a factor. My neighbors down the street were on the fence until one weekend where they swore that the next stupid thing they heard from one side would push them to vote for the other side. Shortly afterwards, Cher said that if Bush wins, gays would be shipped off to a single state and quarentined. They swore that tipped the scales. Talking to them today, the wife didn’t go through with it; she voted for Kerry. The husband - who was a Gore 2000 voter - voted Bush, pushed over the edge by a whiny liberal celebrity. He told me today that he figured Virginia would go Bush no matter what, so he wasn’t actually hurting anything. Anecdotal? You betcha. But true. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/95 "2004-11-04T03:27:20Z")
Michael Moore helped me decide to vote for Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Jurhael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Jurhael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurhael)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/96 "2004-11-04T03:45:25Z")
I don’t think Bush is a leader. I think he’s a loud mouthed blowhard that I don’t respect at all. At least I could pretend to respect Kerry. Personally, I think the conservative yak jaws are as bad as the liberal ones. Maybe some of them helped people vote for Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/97 "2004-11-04T04:42:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I like Diogenes a lot. I didn’t always. He’s like two posters in one. Diogenes is a great person and like all great people his flaws are also great. > > He’s my absolute favorite left-wing nutjob (and I mean that with affection.) He’s stubborn myopic and prejudicial, unpleasant and thick… and at the same time he’s also this insightful and nice guy who will sometimes listen and respond with great care and respect… > > And then in the next post he’ll go off raving again > > And the one after that he’ll be really cool again. > > He knows a fair bit about theology, doesn’t ever seem to hold a grudge. > > He’s really the only poster on this board who can make me laugh, shake my head at his stupidity, educate me with his insight, disgust me with his vitriol, make me smile with a sincere compliment, and call me a Nazi bastard… all in the same thread. I couldn’t agree more! It’s nice to find someone else who feels the same. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/98 "2004-11-04T05:15:50Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > See, that’s just it. **Doggy Knees** may be off the deep end with a comparison to Hitler, but we may very well be looking at the New American Fascism. A lot of the warning signs are there. And maybe we’re not – maybe I’m just being paranoid. But I think we’d be smart to keep an eye on things. tdn, you’re right on the money, sort of. Doesn’t matter WHO sleeps at 1600 Penn. Blvd, or WHO goes to work at the Capitol, we need to keep an eye on things. A Big Eye. One that looks into all the cracks, crevices and ratholes. The gov’t should be under the watchful eye of the people, not the other way 'round. But we’re not interested in the day-to-day operations, which is when crap like the patriot act happens, in the middle of the night, or on a slow tuesday afternoon, when nobody’s lookin. I’m tellin’ ya, DtC is off the bloody deep end with the Hitler/Bush comparison, it simply does not jibe. Still, we’ve gotta be over that guys’ shoulder for the next 4 years. Him, and that fucking ashcroft. Now THERE, see, THAT is a comparison, Hitler=Ashcroft, THAT makes more sense. (I kid, really…well, sort of) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/99 "2004-11-04T06:05:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s pretty much a semantic thing with Kerry. He supports civil unions, he just doesn’t want to call it marriage. He has not advocated abrogating any substantive rights. > > The COTUS amendment, on the other hand, would not even permit civil unions. > > A vote for Bush was a vot for a candidate who wants to permanently eliminate even the chance for civil unions in any state. > > Yes, I know what he said about civil unions last week. His own amendment contradicts those statements. You acan’t support an amendment for prohibiting the use or sale of all alcohloic beverages and then say people should be allowed to drink beer. > > If that’s the way he really feels, then he needs to advocate for changing the language in the amendment. If he won’t do that, then he’s a real bigot trying to hurt gay people in a real and lasting way. > > Kerry’s just full of shit about the wording. That’s politics, not substance. You’re behind the times. The wording of that amendment acually was changed to allow cilvil unions. As for Kerry, maybe that was his problem. Most people don’t want to have to decipher some kind of code to figure out where he “really” stands on issues. At least Bush says what he thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717/100 "2004-11-04T06:15:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it was a factor. My neighbors down the street were on the fence until one weekend where they swore that the next stupid thing they heard from one side would push them to vote for the other side. Shortly afterwards, Cher said that if Bush wins, gays would be shipped off to a single state and quarentined. They swore that tipped the scales. > > Talking to them today, the wife didn’t go through with it; she voted for Kerry. The husband - who was a Gore 2000 voter - voted Bush, pushed over the edge by a whiny liberal celebrity. > > He told me today that he figured Virginia would go Bush no matter what, so he wasn’t actually hurting anything. > > Anecdotal? You betcha. But true. How dare Kerry let Cher say that! 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-diogenes/272717.md?page=6)