# Fuck you Ford. $120 for a new key? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357 "2008-12-16T04:32:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/121 "2008-12-27T06:41:54Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Because greedy scum bags who have more common with criminals then decent business men are using subscriptions to drive to the price way up on something that only needs to cost $25. > > Because unlike you I don’t like some auto exec’s ass and call it chocolate. > > I’m still wondering what cars you service with these outrageous fees (not that I’m blaming you for the fees but the asshats who designed the system). Foam at the mouth much? Perhaps the reason I disagree with you is one of us has worked in the industry for over 40 years at both independents, dealers, in a parts house and for the factory. The other person is an uninformed interweb “ex-spurt”\*. Gee which one of us do you think knows more about this subject? > [@Shalmanese](#): > > Rick, no-one in this thread is accusing you of gouging. Rather, they’re sympathetic that you too are being gouged by the car companies. There’s no good reason why you should have to be paying $100 for a key blank and hundreds of dollars in subscription fees for software. > > Mostly, we don’t get why you’re being such an apologist for the car companies when it’s pretty clear that they’re gouging you. > > There’s no reason why multiple models of cars can’t share the same remote or at least the same base board with a different plastic cover. I can routinely buy far more complex pieces of equipment with far smaller production runs for far less. Multiple models of cars do share the same remote. the 300,000 number I quoted covered 5 different models produced that year. > [@NurseCarmen](#): > > Rick. I respect you. I always have. I think you’ll note that I have commended you and GaryT on multiple occasions. But on this one, I think some executive in some windowed Detroit office is making consistently fucked up ideas that the dealerships, the customers, and ultimately you, have to deal with. > > The insurance companies clamored for more secure cars, understandable. I hadn’t known that before, and it makes sense. And you enlightened me. But it seems to me that there were multiple approaches to addressing the problem, and Ford chose one the is needlessly complicated on so many layers, and labor intensive. Ford of course makes it’s money off dealers, just like any franchise. So some asshole in a window office decides he can force the dealers to use whatever fits his whim. > > Now the three day subscription thing is really interesting. And I think it gives me some insight into how the car companies are fucking with the dealers. I work in IT. I work in a supercomputing institute with some of the brightest minds of the business. And I can tell you this unequivocally. Making one massive computer program that diagnoses everything is just about the stupidest approach to this . I can only imagine that Ford laid off the guy that originally designed and programmed the on board computer, so no one has a clue how to write a separate program. Why else would they make such a fucked up program? So everything has to go into this massive hulking program that does everything. Because of that you’ve got a program that is testing your transmission and window motor when all you have is a short in a break light. It’s needlessly complicated probably because that same asshole two decades ago chose to program the on board computers with a proprietary system that has become so bloated over the years because the whole friggen thing is built on a house of cards and can’t be changed. > > Stupid. You have some serious incorrect assumptions here. First off, if I am testing the brake light circuit, that is all the program is doing. It isn’t going to be working on the transmission or the window motor. Secondly since you don’t really know how the program is setup, I find it hard to believe that you can make a logical criticism of it. For your information, the program runs like a web page using IE. As you go from part of the program to another part of the program it goes from page to page in IE. Very, very similar to how you surf the net. Your complaint is like complaining that your computer is reading Wiki, while you are looking at [www.Bighootersareus.com](http://www.Bighootersareus.com) . Lust like your PC is not reading Wiki while you are surfing porn, my program is not testing the transmission while I am checking a lighting circuit. The program goes through 4-5 major revisions each year, and each revision gets 1-4 updates. Based on that, I don’t know how you can say that it can’t be changed. In fact it is a very flexible program and has evolved a bunch since it was first introduced. Compared to what I taught with in 1998, you can hardly recognize the 2008 version. Over the years it has become much more user friendly, and much, much more powerful. Several people have suggested that the diagnostic program be broken up into smaller chunks, or maybe done via a USB stick. OK fair enough, let’s talk about this. First off, these chipped keys have their roots back in the very early 1990s. A show of hands please, how many of you were using USB sticks in 1991? Didn’t think so. Any system the car company uses has to have some provision for earlier cars. If Volvo were to decide to go to a totally separate stand alone system it presents some interesting challenges. in no particular order: [ol] [li]New hardware to be sent to the field (dealers). Who is going to pay for this?[/li][li]Technicians have to be trained - Worldwide. Again who pays for this training?[/li][li]Additional parts have to be stocked, and interest paid on that inventory. Who gets to pay for this inventory?[/li][li]The hardware/and/or/software in the car itself has to be changed. Who pays for this?[/li][li]Software to interface between the car and the new hardware has to be written/tested and distributed. Again who will pick up the tab?[/li][/ol] Speaking as a dealer, if the car company were to say "Hey we are going to break out the key programming function out of the main program, and make it a stand alone, and it will cost you $X dollars. My response would be **FUCK YOU**. You have a perfectly functional solution, why are you fucking with it? If it works don’t fix it. From a practical standpoint, every time a new electronic tool is released, it adds complexity to the shop, and sets up Mr. Murphy for a score. Software tools need to be updated. This takes time. Time = money. Somebody always forgets, or doesn’t get around to it. Then when you need the latest version, you don’t have it because somebody didn’t update the program, and basically somebody gets fucked. Just for the record, let’s look at some pictures [A standard key that can be cut damn near anywhere and requires no programing](http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/82-83-84-Pontiac-Trans-Am-Ignition-Key-Cylinder-Black_W0QQitemZ220331979734QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20081219?IMSfp=TL0812191110008r14105#ebayphotohosting) [A “Laser” or side milled cut key](http://www.plantkeysgb.com/Pictures/COPYWRIGHTED%20SINGLE%20KEYS%201600%20X%201200/Volvo%20copy.jpg). That may or may not have a chip in it. (This key fits some Volvo heavy construction equipment, but it is almost identical to the car version) [The key, and remote combo](http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/_inc/getGraphic.cfm?graphic=SFPLImage84820.jpg%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&siteid=213784&catalogID=3197) I was talking about looking at the first and last picture some differences should be readily apparent. [ul] [li]The first key is edge cut, the last key is “laser” cut. While it may not be obvious, one of them costs a bunch more to have “cut”[/li][li]The last key has an integral remote that screws to it[/li][li]While it may not be obvious, when screwed to a remote, pushing the chrome button allows the key to fold back into the remote. Often called a switchblade key.[/li][li]The second key is not exactly a stamped chunk of metal and therefore probably costs more than a simple stamped key.[/li][/ul] \*Ex as in has been, spurt is a squirt under pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/122 "2008-12-27T13:46:36Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > It has been a long and subtle process to get to where we are, but slowly we have become accustomed to this concept of buying keys in ever smaller components, and not once during that process has it been of advantage to the consumer. I missed this on my read through last night. Most people complain that the car company sells things in larger and larger chunks and that is disadvantageous to the consumer. Such as selling a rebuilt alternator instead of just the brushes. You on the other hand seem to think that we aren’t selling our product in large enough chunks. Taking your idea to its logical extreme, I can picture the following take place at a dealership on your planet. Customer: My remote stopped working, can I get a new one, or do I have to buy the key part also? Plus while I am at it, can I get a spare key and remote? Parts guy:No problem. You have to buy both the key and the remote. Customer: OK roughly how much is that? Parts guy: $45,000 plus tax and license. Customer: :eek: Customer: Isn’t that a bit steep? Parts guy: No, not really, you see we don’t just sell you a key and remote, these two remotes come with a brand new car attached. Customer: But that is stupid! Who thought this was a good idea? I just need a couple of remotes, not a whole car. Parts guy: Well we used to sell just remotes, but **casdave** told us we were ripping the consumer off by selling such small pieces, and we should be selling things in larger groups. We want to be customer driven, we took his idea to heart. The largest group of similar parts we could come up with for the remote was an entire new car, so that is the only way we sell remotes now. Customer: OK, I see. By the way, I have a headlight burned out, how much is a new bulb? Parts guy: $45,000, and it comes in blue, black, red, and silver. Which color do you want? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/123 "2008-12-27T14:36:53Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Foam at the mouth much? > Perhaps the reason I disagree with you is one of us has worked in the industry for over 40 years at both independents, dealers, in a parts house and for the factory. The other person is an uninformed interweb “ex-spurt”\*. Gee which one of us do you think knows more about this subject? Ahh logic fail of appeal to authority. Appearently you didn’t learn much in those 40 years Just answer me this since you’re the big shot. How come other companies can charge $25 for their chipped keys? You never seem to answer that. You also seemed quite ashamed of your over priced product since you refuse to name the brands that use this scam. What’s the matter big shot? If it’s so good you wouldn’t be so ashamed of naming them. Afraid of scaring business away with the truth? > [@](#): > > For your information, the program runs like a web page using IE. Guess it ain’t very secure then is it? > [@](#): > > First off, these chipped keys have their roots back in the very early 1990s. A show of hands please, how many of you were using USB sticks in 1991? Kind of shows the point we’re making. Almost 20 years of chipped keys and in that that time we’ve went from computers with floppies and hard drives measured in tens of megabytes costing $2,000 to dual core systems with gigabytes of ram and terabyte hard drives being under $1000. Yet auto manufactures couldn’t find a way to program keys cheaper. Well some did. Since you can clearly buy $25 chipped keys from the none crooks. Since we’ve had 20 years of astounding growth in electronics in everything but chipped keys it’s logical to conclude the $150 ones are just obstinate dinosaurs dragging their feet to get extra every penny they can from hard working Americans. I mean they have a monopoly on making keys for their models. They don’t have to innovate. They can just price gauge all they want like common crooks. > [@](#): > > [ol] > [li]New hardware to be sent to the field (dealers). Who is going to pay for this?[/li][li]Technicians have to be trained - Worldwide. Again who pays for this training?[/li][li]Additional parts have to be stocked, and interest paid on that inventory. Who gets to pay for this inventory?[/li][li]The hardware/and/or/software in the car itself has to be changed. Who pays for this?[/li][li]Software to interface between the car and the new hardware has to be written/tested and distributed. Again who will pick up the tab?[/li][/ol] Yet some manufactures apparently did all that just fine since you can get $25 chipped keys. Guess you just work for asshats. > [@](#): > > Speaking as a dealer, if the car company were to say "Hey we are going to break out the key programming function out of the main program, and make it a stand alone, and it will cost you $X dollars. My response would be **FUCK YOU**. You have a perfectly functional solution, why are you fucking with it? If it works don’t fix it. So you’re perfectly fine gauging customers and afraid of new technology. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/124 "2008-12-27T18:04:35Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > This thread inspired me to contact my dealership to see how much a replacement for the remote I lost a year ago would be. > > $177 Ooh, don’t ever buy remotes from the dealership! I had a 1996 Crown Victoria that used to belong to my Grandpa and the original fobs had buttons that were all worn out. So I called the dealership and they quoted me a similar price to yours. I did a little online searching, found this place: [http://www.keylessride.com/](http://www.keylessride.com/) And purchased TWO new remotes for $75 that had the exact same functionality as the originals. However, I came to find out that I needed the car’s original code (because it had those numerical buttons on the driver’s door below the handle) to program the remotes. So I call Ford again, asking how I can get my code, and they described some expensive ($100), arduous process of hooking the car up to a computer to retrieve the code from the car’s computer. I called [keylessride.com](http://keylessride.com) and present them with my issue, and they were like “Sir, that code is found on a sticker in your trunk next to the yadda yadda” and I looked, and there it was! Imagine that, Ford “not knowing” that! Instead of just trying to help me out, they wanted me to come in and spend a bunch of money. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/125 "2008-12-27T18:44:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Rick** > > Parts guy: Well we used to sell just remotes, but casdave told us we were ripping the consumer off by selling such small pieces, and we should be selling things in larger groups. We want to be customer driven, we took his idea to heart. The largest group of similar parts we could come up with for the remote was an entire new car, so that is the only way we sell remotes now. > Customer: OK, I see. By the way, I have a headlight burned out, how much is a new bulb? > Parts guy: $45,000, and it comes in blue, black, red, and silver. Which color do you want? Ahh, the fallacy of the excluded middle, set the terms so that there can only be two extremes and nothing else, not very good debate tactic, but I should not expect that in the pit, however if you are game for sheer stupidity, then I shall join you and see how it works out. Now to rework that conversation. Customer - Shucks, I lost my car key, the special programmed key, not one of the drones, how much will that cost me to replace please? Main Dealer - That will be $45k please Customer - What? I only want a key, remote, swivel, programming and key cutting - preferably by laser, it should not come to more than $600. Main Dealer - Well its like this, we have to keep all these other things in stock and avalailable to ensure the safety and security of your car or the insurance companines would not touch it. Customer - How come some car keys can be replaced for $25 then? Main Dealer - Well you will find you cannot get one of these keys to work on your car because our designers made very sure that we have control of all aspects of security and marketing. Customer - So what am I getting for my $45k then? Main Dealer - Well you forgot to mention the special anti-static bag, you need one for each programmed part, they are $200 apiece - so that’s a total of $400 The technician needs to wear the ‘one use only’ anti-static strap whilst programming your key and remote, there’s another $500. Not only that, we have to charge you $500 for the special lock lubricant so you do not damage your key or car, its essential and we will not sell you a replacement without it. Also, it costs $1000 for the special instruction card so that you can initiate your card on first use, and you have to pay $1000 for the database so that if you have any sort of problem with your key all the information will be available and will be accurrate. You will of course have to pay for the extended warranty on these products which is another $1000…etc etc etc Of course, that is the only other possible solution to this conundrum isn’t it, and if it looks stupid, well its about as sensible as the fucking idiotic statement you have just made **Rick** There’s more technology in the average GPS system, and yet somehow the user does not have to cough up $10.8 billions to put the satellite up in the sky, and we could mention the radio, or the mobile phone hookup or plenty of other things, even the materials science involved in manufacturing everything from the engine to the cup holders. As for he GPS system, I wonder what would happen to the cost of these if it was only the car manufacturers who made them, I also wonder why it is that despite all that technology, warranty, spare parts and back up these do not cost the same as one goddamned key - is it possible that there is some competition that keeps prices down? Is it possible that a car can still be driven even if the GPS system does not work - which means that extrotion is not as readily accomplished? You bet your sweet little ass it is, and that is the lie to all your justification of this patent rip off, why defend the manufacturers when you are caught up in the crossfire, and as for your earlier point of the numbers of units sold, you are aware that this is a global business right? and that the numbers are far more substantial.Just because the number of replacement keys sold is relatively small, the fact is that the number of original supplied keys must still be provided, and that makes for economies of scale. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/126 "2008-12-27T20:52:43Z")
Isn’t this argument kinda related (noticing the GPS reference) to the one that people had “caught on to” for years regarding factory-installed radios/tape/cd players? The dealer used to charge a fortune for a so-called “premium” stereo system that was a bunch of speakers with paper woofer cones and crappy Delco head units with zero amplification power and tuner sensitivity. Everyone knew that aftermarket stereos were far cheaper and far better. Apparently it’s only a fairly recent trend to have these “premium” sound systems actually include premium brand name audio equipment, but I’d be willing to bet that it is still way overpriced for what you get. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/127 "2008-12-27T20:56:15Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Honestly, does anybody really have a problem with having the “on switch” for their very expensive, slightly mobile toy, be somewhat complicated? Is that really such a horrible problem? At least once a year I have to self-enable a “key” to my finances and credit. This little plastic gadget, accessing information and money worth much more to me than a silly car, can be replaced free of charge with a simple phone call and I can enable it for use directly from my home. What’s even better, if lost the support centers and staff don’t charge me an “hourly expert trained technician” fee for their time in pushing a few buttons. Remember when support and service were included in the price of a car? You’ve been sold the oldest rationale for customer fleecing in the book, the fact that it is a trivially easy service to provide and is charged so much just makes your position even more absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/128 "2008-12-27T23:39:41Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > For your information, the program runs like a web page using IE. > [@The Tao's Revenge](#): > > Guess it ain’t very secure then is it? See right here you have shown your ass, and just how ignorant you are, and why you need a hot steaming cup of [this](http://www.voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg). here read it again and see if you can spot just where you stepped into a bucket of shit. > [@Rick](#): > > For your information, the program runs like a web page using IE. > [@The Tao's Revenge](#): > > Guess it ain’t very secure then is it? Still don 't see it? Try the enhanced version below > [@Rick](#): > > For your information, the program runs **like** a web page using IE. > [@The Tao's Revenge](#): > > Guess it ain’t very secure then is it? Got it now? See the word like? Since it appears you have no clue what it means, let me help you out. > [@Dictionary.com](#): > > ``` > 2. corresponding or agreeing in general or in some noticeable respect; similar; analogous: drawing, painting, and like arts. > > ``` > > 1. bearing resemblance. > 2. in like manner with; similarly to; in the manner characteristic of: He works like a beaver. You will note that if I say: He works like a beaver, I am not accusing him of being a beaver, just saying he works hard like one. When I say a program runs like a web page that does not mean it is a web page, it is just displayed like a web page. IE is the program that is used to display these pages. Since the program is resident on my hard drive it is quite secure. Thanks for playing, but you lose. I am not even going to bother addressing your other head up the ass statements. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > However, I came to find out that I needed the car’s original code (because it had those numerical buttons on the driver’s door below the handle) to program the remotes. > > So I call Ford again, asking how I can get my code, and they described some expensive ($100), arduous process of hooking the car up to a computer to retrieve the code from the car’s computer. > > I called [keylessride.com](http://keylessride.com) and present them with my issue, and they were like “Sir, that code is found on a sticker in your trunk next to the yadda yadda” and I looked, and there it was! > > Imagine that, Ford “not knowing” that! Instead of just trying to help me out, they wanted me to come in and spend a bunch of money. This represents and illustrates a very real problem in our industry (an other industries also) I call it those that don’t remember history are doomed to repeat it. Your car is 13 model years old. There is an excellent chance that the guy that you spoke to at a Ford **dealer** (Not Ford, but a dealer, there is a difference) was not working or selling parts for Fords 13 years ago. Just how is he supposed to know this bit of trivia? Or if he did work there 13 years ago, he could have forgotten. Contrary to popular belief we don’t give our new hires a Vulcan mind meld, so they know everything on day1. He did know that the number could be retrieved from the car’s central computer. I would also like to point out that if the car had been wrecked, and the trunk lid replaced, his would have been the only correct answer. So you have to give him credit for a correct answer, but in your case not the easiest or cheapest answer. I have seen similar problems in companies where every few years someone new wants to try something that has failed several times in the past. It would make the old timers go :rolleyes: Of course here in Doperland every parts guy knows the part number for every part on every car every built, and every technician knows every service procedure for every car ever built. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/129 "2008-12-27T23:58:43Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > This represents and illustrates a very real problem in our industry (an other industries also) I call it those that don’t remember history are doomed to repeat it. > Your car is 13 model years old. There is an excellent chance that the guy that you spoke to at a Ford **dealer** (Not Ford, but a dealer, there is a difference) was not working or selling parts for Fords 13 years ago. Just how is he supposed to know this bit of trivia? Or if he did work there 13 years ago, he could have forgotten. Contrary to popular belief we don’t give our new hires a Vulcan mind meld, so they know everything on day1. > He did know that the number could be retrieved from the car’s central computer. I would also like to point out that if the car had been wrecked, and the trunk lid replaced, his would have been the only correct answer. So you have to give him credit for a correct answer, but in your case not the easiest or cheapest answer. > > I have seen similar problems in companies where every few years someone new wants to try something that has failed several times in the past. It would make the old timers go :rolleyes: > > Of course here in Doperland every parts guy knows the part number for every part on every car every built, and every technician knows every service procedure for every car ever built. Well, fwiw, I don’t own that car anymore, and this issue came about in about 2003, so it was an 8 year old car then (with only 20,000 miles, Grandpa didn’t drive it much!). I understand your point, and I don’t expect everyone at a dealership to know everything, but I asked the guy “Is that the only way to do this?” and he assured me that it was. My skepticism arose from the fact that some anonymous dude that I called that worked for a website that sold aftermarket remotes had an instant answer to my question that didn’t cost me a cent. AND I got two of their remotes for half the price of ONE from the dealer, and they worked perfectly well. So…yeah. Rick I am not trying to undermine your wealth of knowledge or experience in this area: I have read many of your car help posts in GQ and find your answers informative. However, I think the other posters in this thread have a valid complaint with the industry in general in how they set themselves up in a proprietary manner to ensure the flow of dollars in their service/parts sector. I see this in my line of work (carwashing) ALL the time, and almost always I can find a cheaper, viable replacement part from someone other than the original manufacturer. None of which is your fault, per se, as you stated, you’re passing along this inflated cost because your business model dictates it and frankly, people will pay it. It still sucks for the customer though. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/130 "2008-12-28T00:03:03Z")
It’s just not reasonable to charge over $100 for a key. That’s the gist of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/131 "2008-12-28T00:11:30Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > There’s no reason why multiple models of cars can’t share the same remote or at least the same base board with a different plastic cover. I can routinely buy far more complex pieces of equipment with far smaller production runs for far less. Of course they do share remotes. Not only that, but they don’t even bother removing the other brand’s logo. [http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/10/30/volvo-badge-found-under-faded-aston-martin-key-fob/](http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/10/30/volvo-badge-found-under-faded-aston-martin-key-fob/) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/132 "2008-12-28T05:14:36Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > See right here you have shown your ass, and just how ignorant you are, and why you need a hot steaming cup of [this](http://www.voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg). > here read it again and see if you can spot just where you stepped into a bucket of shit. > > Still don 't see it? Try the enhanced version below Which browser has the most exploits? Say it with me. Internet Explorer. Google it if you don’t believe me. If “the app” is embed in a webpage that runs on IE like you say then it’s ActiveX. Which happens to be the reason IE gets cracked by preschoolers still learning their alphabet. > [@](#): > > I am not even going to bother addressing your other head up the ass statements. Because you’re too stupid and you don’t have any answers. You work using inferior tools and gauge customers. You could be making new keys for $25 but the corprate asses you lick rigged the system to cost 500% that. I’ll take that as an admittance of victory. ---
**Author:** ![mecaenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/91b2a8/32.png) [@mecaenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mecaenas)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/133 "2008-12-28T05:22:05Z")
I dunno how it works in the US but isn’t there another option? Here in Australia the car dealers charge ridiculous fees (if I remember it was ~$200 quote for mine) but there’s key cutting shops here that can do the key + immobiliser coding for 1/3 the price. All they needed was the 1 working key I had left and they made me a new one, a proper key just like it was when it came from the factory. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/134 "2008-12-28T05:36:23Z")
> [@mecaenas](#): > > I dunno how it works in the US but isn’t there another option? Here in Australia the car dealers charge ridiculous fees (if I remember it was ~$200 quote for mine) but there’s key cutting shops here that can do the key + immobiliser coding for 1/3 the price. All they needed was the 1 working key I had left and they made me a new one, a proper key just like it was when it came from the factory. That’s very interesting. I wonder why they don’t have the huge costs **Rick** mentioned up thread? **Rick** tries to paint us all as ignorant for not accepting some ungodly fee as reasonable, but yet we have more and more examples of chipped keys being programed real cheap. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/135 "2008-12-28T18:12:06Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > At least once a year I have to self-enable a “key” to my finances and credit. This little plastic gadget, accessing information and money worth much more to me than a silly car, can be replaced free of charge with a simple phone call and I can enable it for use directly from my home. What’s even better, if lost the support centers and staff don’t charge me an “hourly expert trained technician” fee for their time in pushing a few buttons. I have to say in this entire dumb thread, this is the dumbest analogy of all. It couldn’t be any dumber if it were carved out of a frozen dog turd and bounced up and down on a pop-up picture book by George W. himself. Just the plastic on a normal EMV chip card probably costs anywhere between $3-6 depending on the quantity they’re ordered in. They’re only that cheap because they are an agreed industry standard, manufactured in the hundreds of millions every year. Then add on the cost of actually embossing, issuing and activating the things (probably at least $50 a pop by the time you’ve paid for everyone involved in the process, often a lot more). Every time you receive a new card, it costs someone somewhere a big fat bundle. The reason you don’t get asked to pick up the tab is that the card company gets earns anywhere from $0.50 to $100+ every single time you use it, depending on what you spend - you might not feel the little sting in the sphincter each time, but the merchant certainly does. Does you car manufacturer earn fee income each and every time you use your car key? I sincerely doubt it. They quite probably earn less profit from you than your card company does, so it’s hardly surprising they’re less generous. [QUOTE=The Tao’s Revenge] Rick tries to paint us all as ignorant for not accepting some ungodly fee as reasonable, but yet we have more and more examples of chipped keys being programed real cheap. [/QUOTE] I’m sure you can find plenty of examples of people’s central heating being repaired real cheap too. Does this mean that all central heating repairs can be done in 20 mins using a $9.99 Wal-Mart toolkit? Most likely not. I bet that Evil Rick even charges more for his fancy-shmancy genuine Volvo hubcaps than Walmart does for perfectly serviceable plastic ones. So what? He’s entitled to charge whatever he needs to charge to run a profitable business. It’s not as if he’s holding a gun to anyone’s head to force them to buy a Volvo or patronise his dealership. He’s already said that all the info you need to make the keys is available from the car manufacturers for a small fee, and that you can easily buy all the tools and software you need to set up your own cut-price key-making emporium. If you think replacement keys are such a goldmine, why don’t you pony up a few tens of thousands of dollars to take this business away from them and help out your poor hard-pressed key-deprived dopers? God, what a pissy pointless bunch of whining. Car manufacturers charge a bunch of money for stuff their customers think should be cheaper, dear sweet lord Jesus have mercy on us all, the end times is nigh. Where have you people been for the last few decades? I can remember my dad getting into just this kind of grumble 25 years ago about some replacement points for a crappy old Vauxhall Viva or something - one little bit of spring metal with two small metal studs on it which cost £10 or something. If it wasn’t that it was paying extra for obscure water-pump parts or bizarre non-standard wrenches to get past the air cleaner to unfasten the third sparkplug or whatever. If you don’t like paying through the nose for stupid little bits which are either unobtainable or cost five times more than the stuff which doesn’t void your warranty, then stick to buying cars that can be completely rebuilt from the junkyard for chump change, or start cycling. Until all the car manufacturers in the world get together out of the altruistic goodness of their hearts to form the Global Alliance for Standardising All Car Parts and Making Them Totally Generic you are all shit outta luck, so I suggest you get used to it. In related news, I had a thoroughly objectionable christmas curtesy of my increasingly bonkers bonkers mother, and I currently hate the universe and everyone in it. HUMBUG, I say. HUMBUG!!! ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/136 "2008-12-28T18:23:10Z")
I vote the frozen dog turd award to **Slaphead** for his key replacement /Central heating repair analogy. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/137 "2008-12-28T23:48:12Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > I have to say in this entire dumb thread, this is the dumbest analogy of all… What ATM card do you use that charges from .50 ~ 100? Mine has zero charges or fees. But you are missing my point, it has to do with technical complexity vs security vs cost. Somehow, you have fallen for the fallacy that complex==costly. Economies of scale and smart choices in standardization and implementation can reduce cost to a pittance. I’m a design engineer in a high tech industry, and I can ring up one of my production shops and have your latest expensive “laser cut” (makes Dr Evil fingers) key made, even at high prototyping costs, for less than your dealership is fleecing the customers for. Hell, I’ll even make it out of titanium. Additional RFID chipping in a plastic fob is pennies. Let me guess…you must now gladly pay a tow truck driver 10x more because his 2008 truck is more technologically complex than the 1975 truck he’s been previously using and he’s told you that he is now considered to be an expertly trained technician with high overhead costs. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/138 "2008-12-29T02:34:21Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > What ATM card do you use that charges from .50 ~ 100? Mine has zero charges or fees. But you are missing my point, it has to do with technical complexity vs security vs cost. No you have missed the point. Every time you use that ATM card it costs the merchant somewhere between 1%-3% of the transaction in fees. [Cite](http://www.merchant-accounts.com/merchant_account_rates.html) TINSTAAFL. If the merchant did not have to pay these fees, his selling prices could be lower. If the lunch wasn’t “free” the drinks wouldn’t cost so much. If you think that banks are any less profit driven, nicer guys, or any more altruistic than car companies, then you are on drugs. give me 1% of the value of your car every time you start it, and I will be happy to give you a new key every month. Hell, I’d give you a new one every week for that kind of money. > [@](#): > > Somehow, you have fallen for the fallacy that complex==costly. Economies of scale and smart choices in standardization and implementation can reduce cost to a pittance. I’m a design engineer in a high tech industry, and I can ring up one of my production shops and have your latest expensive “laser cut” (makes Dr Evil fingers) key made, even at high prototyping costs, for less than your dealership is fleecing the customers for. Hell, I’ll even make it out of titanium. Additional RFID chipping in a plastic fob is pennies. Then why don’t you do what **slaphead** suggested, go into business for yourself and drive me out of the key business. After all as the saying goes, build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. here is your golden opportunity, knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/139 "2008-12-29T23:55:59Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Let’s be realistic, a transponder key is a 5 cent hunk of metal with a probably 50 cent circuit inside. Everything else is just red tape and gouging. Yes, the security of the transponder keys is a great feature, but the car companies took that as an invitation to get their hooks into the dealers and owners by making things overly-complex and expensive. > > Another possible option for those down to one transponder key, just make a copy of it to a non-transponder key. Should only cost a couple dollars. Then tape the working transponder key to the underside of your steering column. The car ignition is likely just looking for the presence of a properly coded transponder key. It doesn’t necessarily care if that’s the same key that’s in the ignition. The mere presence of the transponder chip should be enough to convince the car to start with the copy key. Of course there’s a security risk from doing this; if someone breaks into your car they have a working key right on the bottom of your steering column. I suppose you could hacksaw off the non-keyfob portion of the transponder key so the crook would at least have to hotwire the car to get it started. > > Either way, I would go to great lengths to avoid paying $120 for a key, especially on an older car. This has been known to work on Toyotas and Fords, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work with any transponder key system that doesn’t rely on a physical connection to the transponder chip. If this works, make another copy so you can have at least two working keys outside the car. I hate to resurrect this shiity thread but I said I would try it and it does work. As long as you have the key in close proximity to the module,which on Chrysler vehicles is in the steering column, it will work with a generic key. I tried it on two chrysler vehicles, both use a magnetic ring that surrounds the key when you insert it in the cylinder, but will still work it it is within 3 inches of said module. Any further and the interrupt will kick in. Just as a caution I will tell you if you try to start the vehicle three times without the key in proper range it will completely lock out all keys incuding the programmed one. You will be able to tell if the vehicle starts and runs for 3 seconds then shuts off. Having the key the programmed with the lock out condition will result in additional time to have a ANY key programmed. It entails putting the vehicle on a battery charger for a mimimum of 1 and 1/2 hours with the driver door open with the key in the igintion. I’m sure this is just fucking fuel for the fire for the group that thinks their getting ripped off. Face facts, designing security shit for the masses ain’t easy. Because I’m sure you all think you’re the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I got news for you. People who figure out how to steal shit are the really sharp ones. Even a dumbass like me can see that. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357/140 "2008-12-30T00:18:04Z")
Well **Omegaman** , we’re fighting some ignorance at least, even in The Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-ford-120-for-a-new-key/477357.md?page=8)