The customer is the lowest man on the pile of shit, but both dealers and customers should be letting the manufacturers know what they think of the key situation. It can’t generate much good will for the dealer or manufacturer for people to get gouged on keys like that.
Why would any one be angry? I sell things. If you need them and you are willing to pay, then you buy them.
It’s more like this is what I paid for it, and you’ll have to pay more than I did, or, I guess I won’t sell it to you… Reminds me of that supply and demand thing.
Oh, I almost forgot. Unless you lost your last key to your car, which you didn’t have the foresight to get a duplicate, or didn’t think it was worth the dough, which without a key is a 20,000 dollar paperweight?
Did I forget to mention that whenever making a key I take personal liability that I have cut a key for the actual owner of said vehicle?
The fact is that customers drive the demand for features on vehicles. I have received many surveys from the manufacturers for this very thing. Selling the parts for a vehicle that has had the seats and the consoles and the radio and every other thing that can get stolen from a vehicle less than selling “ONE” fucking programmed key that will stop a thief from attempting to steal your car at all?
You do the math.
So lets take a look at Rick’s costs and his charges then,
Can anyone tell me what is wrong here? Shouldn’t be too hard.
You, the customer, get charged $99 for $30 worth of labour, nice if you can get it.
There is no direct transfer of cost from the subscription charge to the end purchaser - strange that it is not all that transparent isn’t it?
Rick is generous, he doesn’t seem to charge at all for his cost of the 3 day subscription that is taking $125 out of him, and yet despite this he still makes a profit - nothing wrong with profit, its extortion that I object to.
Tell me, anyone think it is reasonable for the motor company to charge 3 days subscription for maybe an hours use at most?
There is a term for this, it is called ‘bundling’ where the seller in an effective monopoly bundles costs together that the purchaser neither wants nor needs, all this to ask for a higher price.
The keys and the remote, does anyone think they are hand crafted, personally engineered by unicorn mechanics and individually monogrammed? because that is one hell of a price to pay for mass produced items, these things are churned out in factories by the million, if not tens of millions and yet somehow economies of scale seem not to apply to them.
Literally the only differance between one remote and another is the software, if your remote dies then all they need do is supply another remote and code, nothing else whatsoever - its one of the benefits of programmability - its one of the serious ways of reducing costs.
The keys, do you think they are so amazingly unique that you have to pay twice for them? once for the item and once for the programming, in effect you are paying four times for one thing, the key+program+remote+program= one item.
I’m going to forget that we are in the pit, but I think you owe me a better explanation than that.
First, I don’t doubt that things are as you describe them. You are only telling us the way the manufacturers have the system set up now and how you implement this system for your customers. If you are going to ridicule my ideas, as least tell me why the current method is so damn complicated when it really shouldn’t be when other transfers of data are pretty common and relatively uncomplicated (and with far better than ‘trivial’ security).
And if you can, please explain what the ‘repair subscription’ covers. No doubt you need it, but what is it?
[quote=“casdave, post:83, topic:477357”]
So lets take a look at Rick’s costs and his charges then,
Can anyone tell me what is wrong here? Shouldn’t be too hard.
You, the customer, get charged $99 for $30 worth of labour, nice if you can get it.
QUOTE]
$30 of direct labour. What about those pesky indirect labour charges, such as the cost of Rick himself?
Adding more hard data, here’s how to program a Ford Focus or Mazda3 key, assuming you already have 2. It’ll cost you about $25:
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71178
And the key blank itself: finishlineperformance.com
Silly me. You are correct. That item that once cost me $3.00 but now cost me $150 is because the demand went up so much. No? Then the supply must have dwindled. No?
The laws of supply and demand are compromised when monopolistic forces affect them.
How would you react if your electric rate went from $0.12 per kwh to $12.00 per kwh. Your electric company sells power. If you need it, you should be willing to pay for it. Don’t get angry though.
I’ll let you in on a little secret. When the power company raises my rates. I still pay them. I live in las vegas and you can be sure the power rate hikes don’t go into effect untill spring. Right before you start using a shitload of it. I don’t start a pit thread about it and guess what? It’s the same fucking power I was paying for before. No added benefit. Not like getting a a key that stops some asswipe from stealing your whole fucking car with a screwdriver that costs 1.00. You know what else? If you wan’t a vehicle that doesn’t have a chip in the key all you have to do is ask. Vehicles that don’t use chip keys are still sold at this very moment. In the end it’s all about the customer, where I work at least. But don’t be surprised if that vehicle doesn’t have all the other stuff you just can’t live without. You know, you, the customer. You want to buy a new vehicle that uses a chip key and you don’t wan’t to pay extra for it? Just ask. You think some salesman wouldn’t sell you a car because he would lose 120.00 on it? None that I know of.
You should start riding a bike to work. Make sure you chain both tires or some greasy fuckstain will be having that too. The thief will have to spend more on the tool. Don’t seem right does it?
25 bucks for a set of bolt cutters and just a dollar for a screw driver.
Its amazing. Four out of my five cars don’t have keys with chips as did any previous car that I’ve owned. The one with the chip is about in the middle of the pack as far as value. Its quite surprising that I haven’t been reduced to the bicycle situation yet with all of the shitstains coming out of the woodwork with their screwdrivers.
The “salesman” who sold me the chip key car was the poster child for used car salesman. Alas, only one key was available with the car. The car is hardly worth the effort to steal as its has very little chop shop value even though that model is protected from the screwdriver clan.
But that little ole key has somehow retained its value at my local dealer. that little bastard hasn’t dropped a cent in value.
I’m preaching to deaf ears though if I’m trying to reach a guy who can shrug off $120.00/kwh electricity. Which one of those casinos do you own?
Well what can I say? You keep balling about how much shit is and see where it gets you. When the power company starts accepting my wet crying towels for payment I’ll let you know. When the dealer starts trading them for car keys I’ll let you know. I’m sure we’ll both be fucking rich then, huh?
You’re not willing to admit the possibility that some douche bag at some car productin company extorting $150 of your hard earned money for every replacement key is kinda annoying and objectionable?
Not if he get $75 of it.
Ah welcome to doperland. Wonderful doperland where the temp is always 73 degrees, it never rains after 7 AM, landlords don’t charge rent, Business don’t pay taxes, employees don’t want medical insurance, The boss doesn’t expect a salary, employees don’t expect matching contributions to their 401K, electricity and water are free for the asking.
:rolleyes:
So what color is the sky on your planet?
Geez where to start?
Diagnostic subscriptions are available in 3 day, 30 day and annual. It does not matter if you use it for one car or a hundred. Kinda like pay per view porn at a hotel. It costs you X amount for Y amount of time. It does not matter if you get off 2 minutes after the movie starts, roll over and go to sleep, or you stay up and whack off at every scene. The cost is the same. Same deal here. One car or a thousand you have 72 hours, 30 days or a year.
Tens of millions of remotes? :dubious: Of the remote I was describing probably fit about 300,000 cars that year. Each car comes with 2 of them, that’s 600,000. A few people lose them and need to buy more, hell let’s be generous, 50% of the people will buy a replacement, that brings us up to 750,000. Tens of millions? Oh, I forgot this is doperland where the banks will let you have all the money you want at no interest so you can stockpile a 20 year supply of parts on the shelf.
So how is the view from that ivory tower of yours?
So the key and the remote are one part? give me a fucking break. They are two distinct parts with two part numbers for a reason. sometimes remotes go bad, but the key is fine. Or maybe the key takes a shit, but the remote is wonderful. If we sold them as one part number the very first time somebody here had to buy a key when only their remote was bad, there would be a “Fuck you Volvo for making me buy a key when only my remote was bad” thread. I am guessing you would be first in line for that pile on. :rolleyes:
As far as the key + software or remote + software = one thing try this experiment and get back to me.
go out to Newegg.com and buy a new case, motherboard, ram, hard drive and a DVD burner. Assemble them all. Hit the power switch. do you get a Windows welcome screen? Post a question in GQ about your computer “problem”. pretty soon one of our resident computer Sholin priests will come by and tell you “Aah grasshopper, you forget, hardware is hardware, and software is software. You must buy copy of Windows.” The great God Gates looks down and says, “No shit sherlock”
So you borrow a copy of XP from a buddy and install it. When you try to make it work, you get a message that says, fuck you, this copy is already in use. So you post another thread about why can’t you install your buddy’s software. Our resident computer priest comes back and says, “But grasshopper, you know Though shall not steal.” And the great God Gates looks down and says “It is good.”
So after you pony up the buck for a legal copy of the software, you go to burn a DVD. You cannot find how to do this with Windows XP. so you post another thread “Why can’t I burn a DVD?” Our priest comes back yet a third time to remind you that “Ah grasshopper, just because you have one piece of software, it does not mean that you have all pieces of software” and the great God Gates with his disciples Nero and Roxio look down and say “You got that shit right”
So why is the separation of hardware and software OK everywhere else in the computer world, but when installed in a car it becomes illegal, immoral, or fattening?
Yup it is a well know fact that every employee at every car company is wiping their asses with $20 dollar bills and using $100 dollar bills to light their $50 cigars.
:rolleyes:
Looked at the financial new lately?
Pissing off your customers isn’t a good way to stay in business. Especially with the cite that it can be done for $25.
I have a Ubuntu cd that says you have to pay nada for software, it includes a cd burner app. There’s a heap of free cd burning utilities for XP as well.
Other car makes can make new keys for $25. What’s so special about your car companies keys? They gold plated? What brands do you service?
So we’ll know to avoid them like the plague. Lose a key and you lost $150 bucks.
Great idea, we are barely breaking even at $150 so let’s drop the cost to $25.
How does that go Lose a little on each one, but make it up in volume.
So just which model hard drive to I buy to get it pre-loaded with Windows?
So far the only people in this thread who “want” a car key that adjusts their seat and radio and changes the radio station and does their taxes and monitors their credit report are a couple of car dealers who are getting really defensive really fast.
Yet these same car dealers claim they have car-dealership-sponsored research showing that the public is clamoring for these wonder keys.
The rest of us want a key that opens our car and turns it on, or one key to open the car and a different one to turn it on. Either way.
Odds are, when I go to look for a new car I’m not going to be thinking about the key until I’m finishing up the paperwork. It’s going to really suck when I’ve wasted two hours in the dealership and I walk out because the car only comes with a 200-dollar key almost too big to hold in my fist because it has so many whizbang features incorporated into it.
Hey dealer guys, where do I go to fill out a survey about what I want in a car? I think these surveys need an SDMB infusion.
Did you read the thread? One person mentioned start-up features, but I don’t think that is relevant at all to Rick’s position. The development of keys was driving by a demand for increased car security, THAT is what the customer wanted, not personalised driving features. (Besides, I believe those types of features are part of the startup procedures contained in the main ECU, and are not really connected to the keys at all. I could be wrong though.)
Its very easy on a message board to say that all you want is a simple key that turns the darn car on, but I get the impression that there is an attitude of “nah, my car wont get stolen, I dont want that electronic crap, I want cheap keys”. Well, thousands of cars did get stolen, and security features, including keys, have developed as a result.
Not customer driven? In my experience, the whole damn industry is customer driven.