# Fuck You GM. Fuck you, players. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 13, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617 "2009-02-13T00:30:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/21 "2009-02-13T19:18:54Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It’s obvious the current GM has been jonesing for a gaming fix himself. However, he generally refuses to play on anybody else’s terms, so it’s unlikely. Also, he has a tendency to destroy games the moment things start going wrong for him. I have, therefore, refused to ever GM for him (or the COmmando’s player, either) ever again. So, are these guys your friends? It sounds like you have history with them. If I got a situation in a game where I refused to play with another person again, I’m not sure I could play with them as the GM. It sounds like he’s a bad player too. What exactly are the terms he agrees to play on? How does he destroy games? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/22 "2009-02-13T19:27:55Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > He doesn’t have story lines. Or really any plots at all. Something bad happens, and for whatever reason no one else will bother to stop it. Evryone else on the planet is too greedy, shortsighted, or generally useless to bother. Or help. Um, why is he the GM? > [@](#): > > PLus, later on, I saved people again and again from threats they barely even recognized until it was almost too late. I battled assassins, copnspirators, evil mages, and saboteurs, and saved even my own personal enemies from great harm. Nobody cared enough to say “Thank you.” What happens if you don’t do anything? What happens if you don’t save people? If the GM is doing the ‘the world is cruel harsh place and no one cares’ you can play too. > [@](#): > > I’d like to, but even I don’t have access to that system. Which is what pisses me off. It’s a inty buried module which my character couldn’t even verify existed, much less locate. I have no access to it barring locating and physically uninstalling it. All it is, is a small off-switch which responds to one radio frequency and one code. God knows how anyone was supposed to be able to figure that out. Arbitrary rules. Is this universal? Make a radio transmitter that transmits random codes of the same types on random frequencies. You’re bound to hit something. > [@](#): > > Of course, he did just put in the low-level magic ability which instantly lets anyone who has it automatically break all encryption, codes, and understand all languages. :rolleyes: (It’s inevitable: in any game he runs, you may as well put all your points into the most powerful, flexible magic, since nothing else will compare.) I’m thinking about having my character explode in a huge, 360 meter blast from all the explosives I’m carrying. Rule favoritism. Lovely. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/23 "2009-02-13T19:28:24Z")
Dude, gaming is supposed to be _fun_. If you’re not enjoying yourself, what the hell are you bothering with this crap for? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/24 "2009-02-13T19:36:06Z")
I prefer political intrigue games. Dungeon crawls of any kind are incredibly dull. I’d rather play Halo. The problem is the people who are good at political intrigue games usually get into something more interesting in real life. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/25 "2009-02-13T19:54:53Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > How does he destroy games? He knows the rules. All the rules, for everything, perfectly, and makes the kind of intricate study of gaming rules that is usually reserved for detailed analyses of the laws of phsyics. Min-Maxers bow before him and build golden idols of him to worship. He doesn’t need to abritrarily pick out the rules, because he is the ultimate master of building a character so grossly powerful that it is inconceivable that anyone or anything might challenge him. He discovered a way to get abilities equivelant of having three or four 20th level classes… as 3rd level DnD character. Generally speaking, any character he has will be as tough as a Main Battle Tank (at least), with vast and infinitely flexible magic powers, and will have the sunny, cheerful disposition of a a naive waif, but who is secretly an impossibly ruthless genius. His nicer characters have been known to give Horrors From Beyond nightmares. He is so good at predicting plotlines and difficulties that he has been known to simply beeline for the end of a plot, sometimes _before_ the villain has even gotten to start the scheme. He generally will not game unless he has access to considerable magic powers, and will suggest minor tweaks in the rules which sometimes (but not always) open huge loopholes. In one instance, he went and wrote a bunch of rules for the homebrew game I made, then wrote every other character in the party up. He then presented me with the fait accompli, and I had no choice but to go along or the game wouldn’t even get started (because then no one would have a character). He claims to be irritated that he keeps making people’s characters, but then, he’s the one who handicaps them by always making their characters, so they never learn on their own. It also grants him vast control over the game. > [@](#): > > What happens if you don’t do anything? What happens if you don’t save people? If the GM is doing the ‘the world is cruel harsh place and no one cares’ you can play too. He’ll let us, but generally there’s no point. We may as well be the heroes, because if we’re not people will whine at us, and we’ll have more enemies, and even fewer rewards. If we won’t go along, the game ends. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/26 "2009-02-13T20:01:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I prefer political intrigue games. Dungeon crawls of any kind are incredibly dull. I’d rather play Halo. The problem is the people who are good at political intrigue games usually get into something more interesting in real life. Ouch! ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/27 "2009-02-13T20:02:20Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Min-Maxers bow before him and build golden idols of him to worship. I don’t even know him, nor do I do much table-top gaming (would if I could ever find a group…) and I already hate him. Min-Maxers always seem to suck all the fun out of it for the rest of us, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/28 "2009-02-13T20:13:01Z")
> [@Jayn\_Newell](#): > > I don’t even know him, nor do I do much table-top gaming (would if I could ever find a group…) and I already hate him. Min-Maxers always seem to suck all the fun out of it for the rest of us, don’t they? No, most of the time, we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/29 "2009-02-13T20:16:10Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > He knows the rules. All the rules, for everything, perfectly, and makes the kind of intricate study of gaming rules that is usually reserved for detailed analyses of the laws of phsyics. Min-Maxers bow before him and build golden idols of him to worship. He doesn’t need to abritrarily pick out the rules, because he is the ultimate master of building a character so grossly powerful that it is inconceivable that anyone or anything might challenge him. > > He discovered a way to get abilities equivelant of having three or four 20th level classes… as 3rd level DnD character. Generally speaking, any character he has will be as tough as a Main Battle Tank (at least), with vast and infinitely flexible magic powers, and will have the sunny, cheerful disposition of a a naive waif, but who is secretly an impossibly ruthless genius. His nicer characters have been known to give Horrors From Beyond nightmares. > > He is so good at predicting plotlines and difficulties that he has been known to simply beeline for the end of a plot, sometimes _before_ the villain has even gotten to start the scheme. I love running games for this type of guy, because there’s a clause in every single RPG rulebook that I’ve read that says “The GM is the final arbiter”. Point at this clause and say “No.” as often as necessary. > [@](#): > > He generally will not game unless he has access to considerable magic powers, and will suggest minor tweaks in the rules which sometimes (but not always) open huge loopholes. In one instance, he went and wrote a bunch of rules for the homebrew game I made, then wrote every other character in the party up. He then presented me with the fait accompli, and I had no choice but to go along or the game wouldn’t even get started (because then no one would have a character). > > He claims to be irritated that he keeps making people’s characters, but then, he’s the one who handicaps them by always making their characters, so they never learn on their own. It also grants him vast control over the game. > > He’ll let us, but generally there’s no point. We may as well be the heroes, because if we’re not people will whine at us, and we’ll have more enemies, and even fewer rewards. If we won’t go along, the game ends. Funny, I am now going to suggest rather than merely quitting, you go directly to the “blunt force lobotomy” instead. Seriously, I’ve gamed with guys like this for a few sessions max–life is too short. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/30 "2009-02-13T20:18:31Z")
> [@Jayn\_Newell](#): > > I don’t even know him, nor do I do much table-top gaming (would if I could ever find a group…) and I already hate him. Min-Maxers always seem to suck all the fun out of it for the rest of us, don’t they? Suppose it really depends on how you define min-maxers… I mean, I certainly play to maximize my character’s strengths, and minimize his weaknesses…but I accept the weaknesses/flaws I had to take, I don’t go scouting for clearly game-breaking/absurd loopholes like most of the D&D exploits I see, etc. There are minmaxers, which is really the only rational character building strategy for many RPGs/GMs, and there are munchkins like the GM in the ongoing saga of the OP. The latter do not last in my games, I will throw them out because I have better things to do. Same with rules lawyers and bullies. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/31 "2009-02-13T20:29:23Z")
I find myself agreeing with **Zeriel** a lot lately. I am a shameless optimizer. I do it because I enjoy it, quite frankly. When I build a character, he is not going to break your game. But he is going to be a lot more effective than any sample build in any book. Optimization is completely and totally independent of RP style. Not all lawyers and bullies are optimizers, and the reverse is also true. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/32 "2009-02-13T20:35:41Z")
I tend to use “rules lawyers” as the pejorative, as opposed to “knowledgeable players”. A GM version is “rules nazi”. Bullies are the worst, though–the kind of people who attempt to pick and choose both party and game direction by being flaming dicks out of character when in-character decisions don’t go their way. The worst example of this in my personal history was a guy who went born-again midway through a D&D game and rolled up a Lawful Stupid paladin who immediately tried to force himself to be the party conscience despite having only joined the band that session. The rest of the party, being mostly neutral whatever or chaotic good, had very little use for this. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/33 "2009-02-13T20:42:17Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I tend to use “rules lawyers” as the pejorative, as opposed to “knowledgeable players”. Indeed. Ironically, in my gaming group, my wife and I are the only non-lawyers or law students period. None of them are stereotypical rules lawyers. We also have a very, very simple system. Bad calls happen, and a GM should cheerfully reverse them when they do. If you are a player and you object to a call, you have about thirty seconds to make your case. If you can’t convince the GM that your point as at least enough merit to open a book, the ruling stands and everyone moves on. We enforce this rule collectively and it has never caused us any problems at all. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/34 "2009-02-13T20:42:56Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Ouch! Hey last time I did a dungeon crawl I fell asleep. Besides you were the one using real world capital markets as the reason you don’t play Eve. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/35 "2009-02-13T20:46:27Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Indeed. Ironically, in my gaming group, my wife and I are the only non-lawyers or law students period. None of them are stereotypical rules lawyers. > > We also have a very, very simple system. Bad calls happen, and a GM should cheerfully reverse them when they do. If you are a player and you object to a call, you have about thirty seconds to make your case. If you can’t convince the GM that your point as at least enough merit to open a book, the ruling stands and everyone moves on. We enforce this rule collectively and it has never caused us any problems at all. There was a point early in my gaming career where I would literally find and highlight the “GM’s interpretation is final, these rules are not” clause in every book I owned, and it only took about six games from then on for rules lawyers to stop joining my games. The bullies were dealt with in both cases by intra-party violence ending their characters and then subsequently asking them not to re-roll unless they were prepared to stop being dicks. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/36 "2009-02-13T20:48:17Z")
The problem with tabletop gaming inherently is that gamers are often overgrown children, and it is their primary mode of ego expression. That kind of ruins the experience. I’ve had characters die in cool ways that I was perfectly willing to let their death stand. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/37 "2009-02-13T20:49:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Hey last time I did a dungeon crawl I fell asleep. > > Besides you were the one using real world capital markets as the reason you don’t play Eve. 😉 Ok, that was dungeon masochism, not a dungeon crawl. 🙂 Fair enough on the EVE remark. But my life will never be too interesting for some juicy RPG politics. Office politics aren’t exactly kingmaking. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/38 "2009-02-13T20:51:31Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > There was a point early in my gaming career where I would literally find and highlight the “GM’s interpretation is final, these rules are not” clause in every book I owned, and it only took about six games from then on for rules lawyers to stop joining my games. > > The bullies were dealt with in both cases by intra-party violence ending their characters and then subsequently asking them not to re-roll unless they were prepared to stop being dicks. Yep. I love it when players take care of themselves. One of my old friends finally got the message that he had to tone it down about when the other PCs up and hanged him. At least he didn’t ask me to interfere. He took it with a pretty good sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/39 "2009-02-13T20:51:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The problem with tabletop gaming inherently is that gamers are often overgrown children, and it is their primary mode of ego expression. That kind of ruins the experience. I’ve had characters die in cool ways that I was perfectly willing to let their death stand. Filtering out the overgrown children is the hardest part. Of course, I say the same about my EVE operation (Which is currently more fun with three people (two dualboxers, granted) than it was with twelve-fourteen) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617/40 "2009-02-13T20:52:59Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The problem with tabletop gaming inherently is that gamers are often overgrown children, and it is their primary mode of ego expression. That kind of ruins the experience. I’ve had characters die in cool ways that I was perfectly willing to let their death stand. This is the same problem with people who play pretty much any game, rp or otherwise. You just have to be selective in who you play with. The people I play with now are fantastic. We all have busy lives so we don’t get together all that often, but when we do, it is very rewarding. I never have to worry about them, either as a player or as a GM. We are very much on the same wavelength. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-gm-fuck-you-players/485617.md?page=3)