# Fuck you, Judge Littlejohn **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 7, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326 "2010-10-07T03:09:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/141 "2010-10-10T19:12:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Please, when the south stops electing moronic teabaggers to every elected office, I’ll stop taking shit about it.. Does [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Warner) count? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/142 "2010-10-10T21:39:34Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Please, when the south stops electing moronic teabaggers to every elected office, I’ll stop taking shit about it.. > > Does [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Warner) count? That guy doesn’t sound bad at all. There is one big problem with him though, and any “true American” would see it right away… He’s dirty no good stinking filthy Democrat 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/143 "2010-10-10T22:18:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > A quick question: Mr Lampley is noted as being from Oxford. I know that there’s more than one Oxford in the world, but could it be that he is not an American citizen, but a British one? Therefore it would be wrong - perhaps even treasonous - for him to recite the American Pledge of Allegiance. There are a dozen Oxfords in the US. There was a big vogue for naming university towns after the sites of other great universities back in the 1700s. Hence Cambridge, Massachussetts, where Harvard is, and Oxford, Ohio, where Miami University is, and Oxford, Mississippi, where the University of Mississippi is. > [@Quartz](#): > > > [@Polycarp](#): > > > > Reasonable observation, but Oxford MS (site of a major university) is only 50 miles away along a US highway, and it makes a great deal of sense that someone not wanting a local lawyer, for whatever reason, might well get a lawyer from Oxford instead. > > Right. But even granted that, do you need to be an American citizen to practice law in America? No, although you do need to be a lawful permanent resident or the local bar won’t admit you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/144 "2010-10-11T07:10:00Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > > [@Oakminster](#): > > > > That’s right, Dio. It is very fair to smear the entire South over the actions of one judge in Mississippi. > > > > Asshole. > > :rolleyes: > > Truth hurts, no? This is the third time a moderator has posted in this thread instructing people to leave this hijack alone. It is, however, the first time that it comes accompanied by an official warning. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/145 "2010-10-11T20:06:55Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Nope. That didn’t work at Nuremburg, and it isn’t going to work now. 😃 > > An illegal order is an illegal order, period. Well, there’s a difference between an order which one is not legally empowered to give, and an order to do an illegal act. It’s not like the people who DID recite the Pledge on command can be charged with anything. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/146 "2010-10-11T20:09:23Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > > [@silenus](#): > > > > Nope. That didn’t work at Nuremburg, and it isn’t going to work now. 😃 > > > > An illegal order is an illegal order, period. > > Well, there’s a difference between an order which one is not legally empowered to give, and an order to do an illegal act. It’s not like the people who DID recite the Pledge on command can be charged with anything. Cowardice in the face of crazy? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/147 "2010-10-11T20:23:15Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Not a lawyer or anything resembling one but wouldn’t the correct action have been to have recited the Pledge under strong protest and then made an official complaint when the business of the court had finished? In other words, you don’t get to argue with the judge over what is proper procedure in his courtroom and surely it could be argued that he was rightly held in contempt for not obeying the judge. It’s for the judge’s superiors to decide whether hizzonner is an ignorant asshole (and it’s my fervent hope and belief that they will do just that). I’ve read this entire thread but still may have missed someone saying that Lampley and Littlejohn had a run-in back in June over this same issue, wherein Lampley went ahead and said the pledge. Perhaps (obviously), he felt it was time to take a stand and good on him for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/148 "2010-10-11T20:50:58Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > > [@muldoonthief](#): > > > > Well, there’s a difference between an order which one is not legally empowered to give, and an order to do an illegal act. It’s not like the people who DID recite the Pledge on command can be charged with anything. > > Cowardice in the face of crazy? 😃 Not really. As a practical matter, pissing off a judge–particularly a judge likely to hear a substantial proportion of the cases you handle over the next several years, is something a wise lawyer avoids at all costs. This thing with the pledge is nothing new. This judge…and another judge in the same district, have been starting court with the Pledge for years. Most people don’t really mind it. Some actually like it. While Lampley is correct that the law does not require him to recite the pledge on command, this is a fight that really didn’t have to happen. Dozens of lawyers have been in front of this judge. They just recite the pledge, perhaps while rolling their eyes discretely, and then get along with the handling the cases on the docket. The downside to taking the kind of stand Lampley did outweighs the benefit from a purely practical point of view. Hell, the pledge is not even the most outrageous thing I’ve seen judges do. When I first started practicing years ago, I practiced before a judge that would routinely invite a local minister in to lead a prayer on the first day of the term. Did that in every county where he sat–think his district was four counties. I could have raised a fuss, possibly made the national news, and corrected this heinous injustice…or I could have just accepted his quirk, and gone on about my business. I chose the latter course of action, and I don’t regret it. Why risk upsetting a judge over nothing…again, especially when you know the same judge is going to be hearing a lot of your future cases? If you become known as “that lawyer the judge hates”, and you’re in private practice (which thankfully, I’m not), you’ll go broke quickly. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/149 "2010-10-11T20:51:26Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Oh, and **magellan**? You can go to hell with your glee over lawyers going to jail, even if you were joking. First off, nobody should ever go to jail undeserved. I hope you never actually NEED a lawyer, and can comfortably and casually make jokes about a group of people who might actually protect your rights or save you a lot of money (or get you a lot of money) someday. You are much nicer than I am. I hope he does need a lawyer, and the only one available decides to let him rot in jail instead. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/150 "2010-10-11T21:12:36Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > > [@muldoonthief](#): > > > > Well, there’s a difference between an order which one is not legally empowered to give, and an order to do an illegal act. It’s not like the people who DID recite the Pledge on command can be charged with anything. > > Cowardice in the face of crazy? 😃 Oddly enough, I don’t have a particular problem with the Pledge of Alliegance, so I’d go ahead and say it if I was in a courtroom and the judge said “Time to say the Pledge”. I don’t think that makes me a coward. Now time to go home and make my daughters say the Pledge, with dessert and TV privileges at stake… ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/151 "2010-10-11T21:50:29Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Not really. As a practical matter, pissing off a judge–particularly a judge likely to hear a substantial proportion of the cases you handle over the next several years, is something a wise lawyer avoids at all costs. But that begs the very question at the heart of the issue here: whether this judge should, in fact, be hearing any cases at all over the next several years. It’s pretty sad when someone’s reaction to a case like this is, “You should avoid confronting the judge who is directly violating your constitutional rights because that judge might cause hassle for you down the road.” It seems to me that our emphasis should be on removing from the bench the sort of assholes who make a habit of specifically abrogating their sworn duty for their own personal aggrandizement. And also making clear to the mouthbreathing douchebags who keep electing or appointing (depending on the particular jurisdiction) such assholes that it’s not acceptable to retain judges who can’t even follow the very laws they’re supposed to be upholding. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/152 "2010-10-11T22:47:13Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Hell, the pledge is not even the most outrageous thing I’ve seen judges do. When I first started practicing years ago, I practiced before a judge that would routinely invite a local minister in to lead a prayer on the first day of the term. Did that in every county where he sat–think his district was four counties. I could have raised a fuss, possibly made the national news, and corrected this heinous injustice…or I could have just accepted his quirk, and gone on about my business. I chose the latter course of action, and I don’t regret it. Why risk upsetting a judge over nothing…again, especially when you know the same judge is going to be hearing a lot of your future cases? If you become known as “that lawyer the judge hates”, and you’re in private practice (which thankfully, I’m not), you’ll go broke quickly. And then, when you wind up before this judge with a client who is an atheist or other non-Protestant-Christian, and the judge proceeds to do whatever he can to righteously put his thumb on the scales of justice and your client loses and is carted off to prison, loses custody of her kids, or whatever the case may be, you just shrug your shoulders and say “Oh well, can’t win 'em all, right?” ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/153 "2010-10-11T23:01:33Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > > [@silenus](#): > > > > Cowardice in the face of crazy? 😃 > > Oddly enough, I don’t have a particular problem with the Pledge of Alliegance, so I’d go ahead and say it if I was in a courtroom and the judge said “Time to say the Pledge”. I don’t think that makes me a coward. > > Now time to go home and make my daughters say the Pledge, with dessert and TV privileges at stake… Maybe it’s just me, but I find the whole Pledge culture in the U.S. one of the most offensive things we do. I doubt I’ve said it since about 6th Grade. Take “God” out of it, and I might re-evaluate. Probably not. Patriotism under threat is not patriotism at all. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/154 "2010-10-11T23:08:04Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > And then, when you wind up before this judge with a client who is an atheist or other non-Protestant-Christian, and the judge proceeds to do whatever he can to righteously put his thumb on the scales of justice and your client loses and is carted off to prison, loses custody of her kids, or whatever the case may be, you just shrug your shoulders and say “Oh well, can’t win 'em all, right?” No, that’s when you file an appeal. Of course, in much of the rural South, finding an admitted atheist is about as likely as finding a unicorn. There just ain’t many. The reality of elected judges is…not always pleasant. Barring blatant misconduct–which this case may qualify as, depending on what the Judicial Performance people do with it–an elected judge is damn near Almighty God Himself in his own courtroom. You have to pick your battles very carefully. This particular battle is one most lawyers in that area would not have chosen, for the reasons I’ve explained. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/155 "2010-10-12T00:27:09Z")
\*To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us. \* Justice Jackson, writing the majority opinion in _West Virginia SBoE v Barnette_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/156 "2010-10-12T01:08:21Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > > [@silenus](#): > > > > Cowardice in the face of crazy? 😃 > > Not really. As a practical matter, pissing off a judge–particularly a judge likely to hear a substantial proportion of the cases you handle over the next several years, is something a wise lawyer avoids at all costs. This thing with the pledge is nothing new. This judge…and another judge in the same district, have been starting court with the Pledge for years. Most people don’t really mind it. Some actually like it. > > While Lampley is correct that the law does not require him to recite the pledge on command, this is a fight that really didn’t have to happen. Dozens of lawyers have been in front of this judge. They just recite the pledge, perhaps while rolling their eyes discretely, and then get along with the handling the cases on the docket. The downside to taking the kind of stand Lampley did outweighs the benefit from a purely practical point of view. > > Hell, the pledge is not even the most outrageous thing I’ve seen judges do. When I first started practicing years ago, I practiced before a judge that would routinely invite a local minister in to lead a prayer on the first day of the term. Did that in every county where he sat–think his district was four counties. I could have raised a fuss, possibly made the national news, and corrected this heinous injustice…or I could have just accepted his quirk, and gone on about my business. I chose the latter course of action, and I don’t regret it. Why risk upsetting a judge over nothing…again, especially when you know the same judge is going to be hearing a lot of your future cases? If you become known as “that lawyer the judge hates”, and you’re in private practice (which thankfully, I’m not), you’ll go broke quickly. Quisling. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/157 "2010-10-12T01:16:40Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > \*To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us. > \* > > Justice Jackson, writing the majority opinion in _West Virginia SBoE v Barnette_ I’m waiting for somene to call Jackson a traitor… just waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/158 "2010-10-12T02:06:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Quisling. Easy for you to say. You aren’t a lawyer, and you don’t have to make a living by practicing in front of a judge like this. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/159 "2010-10-12T02:19:03Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Quisling. > > Easy for you to say. You aren’t a lawyer, and you don’t have to make a living by practicing in front of a judge like this. Sure. And he has no client, so he doesn’t have to explain to his client’s wife, “OK, good news and bad news. The good news is: I have taken a courageous stand against a truly unconstitutional practice, and I epxect it will really make a change around here; no more forcing anyone to say the Pledge of Allegience. Bad news: instead of getting probation, your husband got six months, 'cause the judge hates me now. With time served, he’ll be out in three. What’s that? No, no, I can’t pay your rent for those three months, or force his employer to give him his job back. But didn’t you hear me about the unconstitutional pledge thing? C’mon, that’s gotta take some of the sting out of it! Eh? Eh?” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326/160 "2010-10-12T02:25:42Z")
I hear what you, Bricker and Oakminster are saying. So, how do they get rid of the guy? File with the county? File in some federal system? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-judge-littlejohn/556326.md?page=9)