# Fuck You, Prop 8 Supporters! Also: Fuck You, Dishonest News Media **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433 "2010-08-06T18:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/201 "2010-08-17T17:20:18Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@Meyer6](#): > > > > Didn’t Jesus also say that God was the only one who got to judge people? It seems to me that judging someone (and denying them rights) for being a homosexual is not too Christian either. > > This is pretty much my take on the SSM issue and the abortion issue. Choose for yourself and allow others the same privilage knowing that according to your faith, God will judge. People justify it by claiming it’s just the beginning of laws that will legalize moral depravity. It’s ridiculous and completely unjustified by any evidence at all. Only God judges a person’s soul (in Christian theology). The idea that Chirstianity is about never judging other people’s actions is preposterous. Would you accept (or expect someone to accept) that same argument for things you disagree with? > [@Revtim](#): > > The opposition to SSM has always had the strong “headed for the dustbin of history” stink on it, like arguments against interracial marriage and such, as I’m sure I’m not the first to point out. But man, can’t even the people still against SSM smell the funk rising off statements like that? Aren’t they asking each other, “what’s that dust-binny smell?” > > Has there been even one documented example of person who said something like “I was going to ignore my gay feelings and get married to a woman and have a stable family life raising kids, but then I heard that same-sex marriage was going to be legal! I mentally aborted that hypothetical genius savior child, and now I’m living in the Village!” Do you mean “why do people fight for something they believe in even if they know they are going to fail?” If it’s something relevant (for you) isn’t it worth the fight. So, ten guys with machetes come to kill your family and you stay seated because “what the hell, they’re going to beat me anyway?”. Are you saying that you don’t know that thousands of gay people married “heterosexually” and then divorced to live/marry “homosexually”? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/202 "2010-08-17T17:31:46Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Do you mean “why do people fight for something they believe in even if they know they are going to fail?” If it’s something relevant (for you) isn’t it worth the fight. So, ten guys with machetes come to kill your family and you stay seated because “what the hell, they’re going to beat me anyway?”. If somehow other people getting married affected me in even the remotest way, let alone threaten by family, you might have had a point there. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Are you saying that you don’t know that thousands of gay people married “heterosexually” and then divorced to live/marry “homosexually”? Are you saying that you don’t know that people can _already_ divorce and live “homosexually”, and adding same-sex marriage isn’t likely to make a difference whether or not that person continues with his or her hetero marriage? Or do you really think that’s going to be the final reason a significant portion of people to switch? And even if that were remotely true that that wouldn’t be a _good_ thing for them to abandon their sham marriages as soon as possible? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/203 "2010-08-17T17:34:18Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Do you mean “why do people fight for something they believe in even if they know they are going to fail?” If it’s something relevant (for you) isn’t it worth the fight. So, ten guys with machetes come to kill your family and you stay seated because “what the hell, they’re going to beat me anyway?”. Hats off to you, sir: this is without a doubt the most finely crafted, dead-on analogy I have ever seen. Fighting to prevent gays from marrying each other is \*exactly \*like fighting to protect your family from being slaughtered by machetes. I’m dumbfounded that no one thought to use this analogy during the appeal. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/204 "2010-08-17T17:41:00Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Or do you really think that’s going to be the final reason a significant portion of people to switch? And even if that were remotely true that that wouldn’t be a _good_ thing for them to abandon their sham marriages as soon as possible? Or better yet, never having entered the doomed marriage to begin with. Seriously, all the homo-haters should be _happy_ that I’m not marrying one of their daughters. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/205 "2010-08-17T19:38:01Z")
I am going to agree with the Prop 8 defenders here, they are right. Even without universally-accepted SSM you have god-fearing, traditional marriage-defending Christians betraying their vows to their wives and engaging in hot, sweaty, passionate man-on-man sex. If SSM comes to be accepted everywhere, imagine the consequences. I mean, what’s stopping my husband for leaving me for his middle-aged, balding golf buddy, huh? Do you want the world to become one endless homosexual orgy? Do you? I didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/206 "2010-08-17T19:43:30Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > > > Do you mean “why do people fight for something they believe in even if they know they are going to fail?” If it’s something relevant (for you) isn’t it worth the fight. So, ten guys with machetes come to kill your family and you stay seated because “what the hell, they’re going to beat me anyway?”. > > Hats off to you, sir: this is without a doubt the most finely crafted, dead-on analogy I have ever seen. Fighting to prevent gays from marrying each other is \*exactly \*like fighting to protect your family from being slaughtered by machetes. I’m dumbfounded that no one thought to use this analogy during the appeal. It looks like analogies aren’t your strong suit so I’ll go for something simpler. Would you simply stop playing a basketgball game in the last 4 minutes because you’re losing by 40 points, simply stand in the court without moving? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/207 "2010-08-17T20:26:09Z")
Right, except the kind of basketball game where one side wants to enforce an arbitrary and hateful social order, and… the other side has machetes they’re going to use to kill the losers, I guess. Story checks out. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/208 "2010-08-17T20:46:46Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Would you simply stop playing a basketgball game in the last 4 minutes because you’re losing by 40 points, simply stand in the court without moving? It matters to me if I win or lose the game, since I am one of the players. A closer analogy would be if I wasn’t even in the game, but I fought to prevent the gay players from ever playing in an officially sanctioned basketball again. Because of something in a book written in the bronze age. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/209 "2010-08-17T21:53:29Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Right, except the kind of basketball game where one side wants to enforce an arbitrary and hateful social order, and… the other side has machetes they’re going to use to kill the losers, I guess. Story checks out. > [@Revtim](#): > > It matters to me if I win or lose the game, since I am one of the players. > > A closer analogy would be if I wasn’t even in the game, but I fought to prevent the gay players from ever playing in an officially sanctioned basketball again. Because of something in a book written in the bronze age. I simply said that, if something is important you’ll fight for it even if you knew you were going to lose. Wouldn’t you? My analogy is not about gay marriage, it’s about that logic of standing for what you believe is right. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/210 "2010-08-17T22:25:52Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > My analogy is not about gay marriage, it’s about that logic of standing for what you believe is right. Of course, there’s also the principle of “If it doesn’t affect you in any way, mind your own fucking business”, but these folks are really good at ignoring that one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/211 "2010-08-17T22:47:02Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > My analogy is not about gay marriage, it’s about that logic of standing for what you believe is right. Good thing, that, because it obviously isn’t about explaining _why_ you believe it’s right. That ground you’ve already ceded. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/212 "2010-08-17T22:48:06Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Of course, there’s also the principle of “If it doesn’t affect you in any way, mind your own fucking business”, but these folks are really good at ignoring that one. What I consider to affect me may not convince you as being relevant or rational. My neighbour’s beating his wife to a pulp doesn’t affect me in any way more that feelings or outrage. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/213 "2010-08-17T22:55:02Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > > [@Revtim](#): > > > > The opposition to SSM has always had the strong “headed for the dustbin of history” stink on it, like arguments against interracial marriage and such, as I’m sure I’m not the first to point out. But man, can’t even the people still against SSM smell the funk rising off statements like that? Aren’t they asking each other, “what’s that dust-binny smell?” > > > > Has there been even one documented example of person who said something like “I was going to ignore my gay feelings and get married to a woman and have a stable family life raising kids, but then I heard that same-sex marriage was going to be legal! I mentally aborted that hypothetical genius savior child, and now I’m living in the Village!” > > Do you mean “why do people fight for something they believe in even if they know they are going to fail?” If it’s something relevant (for you) isn’t it worth the fight. So, ten guys with machetes come to kill your family and you stay seated because “what the hell, they’re going to beat me anyway?”. > > Are you saying that you don’t know that thousands of gay people married “heterosexually” and then divorced to live/marry “homosexually”? Are _you_ saying that the state has an interest in keeping these people in their original marriages? Kinda seems like a commodity-based understanding of a citizen’s role in society… ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/214 "2010-08-17T22:59:18Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I simply said that, if something is important you’ll fight for it even if you knew you were going to lose. Wouldn’t you? In general, sure I would continue to fight. But that’s me, now, as a relatively sane non-malicious person. If I was actively fighting to stop people from doing something that makes them happy, that neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket, that means something has changed in me, and I’m not the person I was. That hypothetical person, who knows? I suppose the crazier a person is, the more they tilt at windmills, so yeah, probably Crazy McAsshole would continue to fight too. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/215 "2010-08-17T23:02:29Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > What I consider to affect me may not convince you as being relevant or rational. My neighbour’s beating his wife to a pulp doesn’t affect me in any way more that feelings or outrage. Becaaaause…marriage equality is _just_ like domestic violence? Who is being hurt by marriage equality? Does marriage equality put anyone in the hospital? Can you actually explain how there’s any connection? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/216 "2010-08-17T23:48:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Are _you_ saying that the state has an interest in keeping these people in their original marriages? > > Kinda seems like a commodity-based understanding of a citizen’s role in society… No, in this specific line of reasoning which is esclusively about one point: fighting for someting even if you tihnk/know you’re gonna lose. > [@Revtim](#): > > In general, sure I would continue to fight. But that’s me, now, as a relatively sane non-malicious person. If I was actively fighting to stop people from doing something that makes them happy, that neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket, that means something has changed in me, and I’m not the person I was. That hypothetical person, who knows? I suppose the crazier a person is, the more they tilt at windmills, so yeah, probably Crazy McAsshole would continue to fight too. So, who makes te decision that wat you’re fighting for is “good”? You or someone else? Your counterexample is wrong because you’d b fighting for someting you think is wrong. > [@jayjay](#): > > Becaaaause…marriage equality is _just_ like domestic violence? Who is being hurt by marriage equality? Does marriage equality put anyone in the hospital? Can you actually explain how there’s any connection? That fact that you failed Analogies 102 is not my responsibility. The specific point I’m arguing is that the fact that something does not impact me directly does not prevent me, legally, morally ethically, from figthing against it. The injuries on my neighbour’s wife don’t affect me particularly in any direct or indirect way, except in the “affects-the-fabric-of-society” stuff (if we’re arguing form the it-doesn’t-affect-me-personally point of view). > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Good thing, that, because it obviously isn’t about explaining _why_ you believe it’s right. That ground you’ve already ceded. Did I say any of that? Can I not make a specific point witout having to reiterate the whole argument? Or was that your horribly failed way of trying to be clever? Maybe I’ve also conceded that putting mayo on a hot dog is wrong, since I didn’t mention it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/217 "2010-08-18T00:15:07Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > That fact that you failed Analogies 102 is not my responsibility. The specific point I’m arguing is that the fact that something does not impact me directly does not prevent me, legally, morally ethically, from figthing against it. The injuries on my neighbour’s wife don’t affect me particularly in any direct or indirect way, except in the “affects-the-fabric-of-society” stuff (if we’re arguing form the it-doesn’t-affect-me-personally point of view). The fact that your analogies are giant pieces of excrement isn’t MY responsibility. With a domestic violence situation, someone is being objectively harmed. That does make it my business, at least to the extent of advocating for laws against domestic violence. Who is objectively harmed by marriage equality? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/218 "2010-08-18T00:48:23Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The fact that your analogies are giant pieces of excrement isn’t MY responsibility. With a domestic violence situation, someone is being objectively harmed. That does make it my business, at least to the extent of advocating for laws against domestic violence. Who is objectively harmed by marriage equality? Dude, iridium-dense. It doesn’t hurt you, does it? Your involvement is a particular choice based on your ideas and beliefs that domestic violence is bad, even if you are never hurt by it. You make it your business out of the goodness of your heart or your own beliefs, but not on actual harm done to you personally and factually. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/219 "2010-08-18T01:09:49Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Dude, iridium-dense. > It doesn’t hurt you, does it? > Your involvement is a particular choice based on your ideas and beliefs that domestic violence is bad, even if you are never hurt by it. You make it your business out of the goodness of your heart or your own beliefs, but not on actual harm done to you personally and factually. You are seriously equating a homosexual marriage with domestic violence? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/220 "2010-08-18T01:56:59Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > > > Dude, iridium-dense. > > It doesn’t hurt you, does it? > > Your involvement is a particular choice based on your ideas and beliefs that domestic violence is bad, even if you are never hurt by it. You make it your business out of the goodness of your heart or your own beliefs, but not on actual harm done to you personally and factually. > > You are seriously equating a homosexual marriage with domestic violence? Well, it’s a step up from ten guys with machetes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433.md?page=12)