# Fuck You, Prop 8 Supporters! Also: Fuck You, Dishonest News Media **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433 "2010-08-06T18:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/81 "2010-08-08T01:36:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I basically agree with your estimation. My quibble would be that I think you’re conflating gays having rights with SSM. I think the acceptance of the former is much greater than the latter. Sure, acceptance of gay rights sans same-sex marriage is greater, but I haven’t been conflating them in my claims: polls indicate that most of today’s youth specifically support same-sex marriage, not just gay rights in general. Once they’re the ones in charge, same-sex marriage will be mainstream; it’s as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/82 "2010-08-08T02:56:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I basically agree with your estimation. My quibble would be that I think you’re conflating gays having rights with SSM. I think the acceptance of the former is much greater than the latter. BUt the main point is that if things had been allowed to slowly move in that direction, the likelihood of SSM being accepted by society at large was greater than it is now that SCOTUS will intervene. Th metamorphosis gets stopped and 9 people in robes will decide it with one ruling. I don’t quite get how this ruling will stop the metamorphosis one way or the other. The actual court ruling is pretty unlikely to directly change anyone’s view. I don’t see many opponents to SSM saying, “Well, I _thought_ it was an abomination before God, but if the Supreme Court says its okay, I must be wrong.” And, of course, the converse is equally unlikely should the court rule against. Either way, the process of social evolution towards inevitable acceptance of SSM is not retarded: it can only be improved by giving it more attention, as the utter paucity of rational reasons for the opposition to SSM becomes more obvious the longer it is obstructed. Worst case scenario here is that the Supremes rule that there’s nothing wrong with discriminating against gays in marriage. Which is already the case in most of this country. So what do we have to lose by trying? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/83 "2010-08-08T03:36:34Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I’m pretty much resigned that gay marriage is going to happen on a widespread, if not > national level. My idea pragmatic preference is that ‘marriage’ be a religious &/or private ceremonial rite while the government only authorized civil unions/domestic partnerships. But even then, the following situations have arisen &/or will arise… > > A church owns a piece of property that it rents out for various functions, not always religious. When it refuses to rent it out for a gay wedding, the church is sued for discrimination… successfully. (Had indeed happened). > > Some Christians open a photography business. They turn down a request to rent their services for a gay wedding. They are sued for discrimination… successfully. (Also has happened). > > Religious schools, radio/TV stations, bookstores, any sort of businesses or institutions which are religious in nature but not actual churches are going to be more liable for discrimation suits for either not hiring gays at all or not offering spousal insurance benefits to them. > > The widespread legalization of gay marriage will inevitable be reflected in public education- sex ed, social studies, even down to elementary school storybooks. When > gay marriage is public policy, then Daddy’s Roommate and Heather Has Two Mommies will just be par for the course. Then, the long-threatened religious conservative pull-out from public schools may just happen, along with their time, effort & finances. ATLAS SHRUGGED may just play out in that realm first. > > And that is how gay marriage may just impose on people who oppose it. I did a find and replace of gay with interracial. > [@](#): > > I’m pretty much resigned that interracial marriage is going to happen on a widespread, if not national level. My idea pragmatic preference is that ‘marriage’ be a religious &/or private ceremonial rite while the government only authorized civil unions/domestic partnerships. But even then, the following situations have arisen &/or will arise… > > A church owns a piece of property that it rents out for various functions, not always religious. When it refuses to rent it out for a interracial wedding, the church is sued for discrimination… successfully. (Had indeed happened). > > Some Christians open a photography business. They turn down a request to rent their services for a interracial wedding. They are sued for discrimination… successfully. (Also has happened). > > Religious schools, radio/TV stations, bookstores, any sort of businesses or institutions which are religious in nature but not actual churches are going to be more liable for discrimation suits for either not hiring interracials at all or not offering spousal insurance benefits to them. > > The widespread legalization of interracial marriage will inevitable be reflected in public education- sex ed, social studies, even down to elementary school storybooks. When > interracial marriage is public policy, then Daddy’s Roommate and Heather Has Two Mommies will just be par for the course. Then, the long-threatened religious conservative pull-out from public schools may just happen, along with their time, effort & finances. ATLAS SHRUGGED may just play out in that realm first. > > And that is how interracial marriage may just impose on people who oppose it. Fits nearly perfectly. Seems to be the same sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/84 "2010-08-08T04:16:07Z")
[quote=“magellan01, post:73, topic:549433”] > [@cwthree](#): > > It’s not being forced on anyone so that they have to participate in an SSM marriage. It’s forcing them to live in a society where man+man = man+woman. It’s as if a court decided that men have the right to walk around without pants and masturbating. No one would be forced to participate in the activity that the new law allows, but they’d be forced to live in a society that allowed it. When something is allowed to be imposed on us as a society, the shorthand is that it is being imposed on us individually. If men were going around masturbating, you would be imposed upon by having to watch them do that, and you would likely be uncomfortable while walking around in public. Same-sex marriage doesn’t force you to see or do anything that you didn’t see before. Same-sex couples already exist, so allowing them to marry is unlikely in to result in you seeing more kissing or hand-holding or whatever it is that makes you unhappy. You are only being imposed upon by just knowing that someone, somewhere entered into a legal agreement that you find icky. So really, this isn’t like letting men walk around and masturbate. It’s more like you are trying to make masturbation illegal entirely, just because you don’t like to even think that someone might be doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/85 "2010-08-08T04:22:16Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I did a find and replace of gay with interracial. > > Fits nearly perfectly. Seems to be the same sentiment. I saw an interesting chart comparing the arguments against interracial marriage to the arguments against gay marriage. It’s pretty interesting in that most of them are incredibly similar. You can see it [here](http://vfm.typepad.com/vermont_freedom_to_marry/files/Arguments_Against_Interracial_Marriage_and_Equal_Marriage.pdf). Most applicable to this particular post is this: > [@Tennessee supreme court](#): > > Interracial marriages would be a “calamity full of the saddest and gloomiest portent to the generations that are to come after us.” I guess we are still waiting for all that calamity to come down the pipeline. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/86 "2010-08-08T04:48:08Z")
[quote=“Bearflag70, post:33, topic:549433”] Here’s the sequence of events: [ul] [li]…[/li][li]The American People adopt the US 14th Amendment, applying due process and equal protection to feds and states. At this point, SSM is a federal right, enshrined in the US Constitution.[/li][li]…[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] Well, I gotta figure if the various state legislatures in 1868 knew what was coming, they’d’ve added an exception saying it didn’t apply to “Acts against nature” or some such thing. Heck, the passing of the 14th wasn’t even assumed to give women the vote, though it seems obvious to us now that it should have. I also figure if “the people” want to add an exception at this late date, they need to pass another amendment that amends the 14th, undergoing the same laborious nation-wide process. I don’t see that “the people” have any other legal option. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/87 "2010-08-08T04:52:25Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > I saw an interesting chart comparing the arguments against interracial marriage to the arguments against gay marriage. It’s pretty interesting in that most of them are incredibly similar. You can see it [here](http://vfm.typepad.com/vermont_freedom_to_marry/files/Arguments_Against_Interracial_Marriage_and_Equal_Marriage.pdf). It is interesting, although one item has me scratching my head: “When people of the same race marry, they cannot possibly have any progeny” 😕 Having looked it up [here](http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2008/10/the-gay-marriageinterracial-marriage-theme-surfaces-in-california-campaign.html), it appears this was Eric Zorn’s alteration of an original quote which was presumably along the lines of “When people of _different_ races marry, they cannot possibly have any progeny”. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/88 "2010-08-08T04:57:54Z")
(It’d be nice if Eric Zorn more explicitly named the Boston University law review article and the Supreme Court brief he refers to. Better yet would be if everyone actually listed these quotes with reference to the original source, so I wouldn’t have to go backtracing through these cite chains) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/89 "2010-08-08T04:58:57Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > > > I did a find and replace of gay with interracial. > > > > Fits nearly perfectly. Seems to be the same sentiment. > > I saw an interesting chart comparing the arguments against interracial marriage to the arguments against gay marriage. It’s pretty interesting in that most of them are incredibly similar. You can see it [here](http://vfm.typepad.com/vermont_freedom_to_marry/files/Arguments_Against_Interracial_Marriage_and_Equal_Marriage.pdf). > > Most applicable to this particular post is this: > > > [@Tennessee supreme court](#): > > > > Interracial marriages would be a “calamity full of the saddest and gloomiest portent to the generations that are to come after us.” > > I guess we are still waiting for all that calamity to come down the pipeline. Bookmarked, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/90 "2010-08-08T05:14:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > > [ So far at least as the limited government argument works, isn’t a simpler system with less ability for the government to control preferable? > > The simpler system with less government control is the one where the states or the people decide if they want gay marriage or not. The system with more government control is the one where un-elected judges overturn the expressed will of the people and force gay marriage on the voters against their will. > > Regards, > Shodan So why is it that it’s “the people” if you agree with it and “the government” if you don’t? Who passed gun control in Chicago: the people or the the government the people elected? Who created the laws segregating drinking fountains in the south? Who put a man on the moon, or fought WWII, or tortured detainees, or let OJ go free, or passed prohibition, or allowed women to vote, or created child labor laws? It’s all the same. We had a fair election, your guy lost, get over it. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/91 "2010-08-08T05:17:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > > [@cwthree](#): > > > > :rolleyes: How, exactly, is gay marriage “imposed” on anyone? Who’s going to be forced to enter into a gay marriage against their will? Or is this all about those poor, poor folks who will have to endure the crushing burden of knowing that someone, somewhere, is doing something that makes the Baby Jesus cry? > > Oh please. Try not to be ridiculous. It’s not being forced on anyone so that they have to participate in an SSM marriage. It’s forcing them to live in a society where man+man = man+woman. It’s as if a court decided that men have the right to walk around without pants and masturbating. No one would be forced to participate in the activity that the new law allows, but they’d be forced to live in a society that allowed it. When something is allowed to be imposed on us as a society, the shorthand is that it is being imposed on us individually. > > Could you really not figure this out for yourself? Fuck you, you nitwit. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/92 "2010-08-08T05:24:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > > [@cwthree](#): > > > > :rolleyes: How, exactly, is gay marriage “imposed” on anyone? Who’s going to be forced to enter into a gay marriage against their will? Or is this all about those poor, poor folks who will have to endure the crushing burden of knowing that someone, somewhere, is doing something that makes the Baby Jesus cry? > > Oh please. Try not to be ridiculous. It’s not being forced on anyone so that they have to participate in an SSM marriage. It’s forcing them to live in a society where man+man = man+woman. It’s as if a court decided that men have the right to walk around without pants and masturbating. No one would be forced to participate in the activity that the new law allows, but they’d be forced to live in a society that allowed it. When something is allowed to be imposed on us as a society, the shorthand is that it is being imposed on us individually. > > Could you really not figure this out for yourself? Oooooooh. So it’s enlightened, _compassionate_ bigotry. It’s all for the good of society, huh? Jesus, man. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/93 "2010-08-08T05:37:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh please. Try not to be ridiculous. It’s not being forced on anyone so that they have to participate in an SSM marriage. It’s forcing them to live in a society where man+man = man+woman. It’s as if a court decided that men have the right to walk around without pants and masturbating. No one would be forced to participate in the activity that the new law allows, but they’d be forced to live in a society that allowed it. When something is allowed to be imposed on us as a society, the shorthand is that it is being imposed on us individually. Well, when your head melts the day after SSM is legal all across the U.S., I certainly hope you’ll donate all your now-unneeded hats to Goodwill. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/94 "2010-08-08T06:08:29Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > > [@Meyer6](#): > > > > I saw an interesting chart comparing the arguments against interracial marriage to the arguments against gay marriage. It’s pretty interesting in that most of them are incredibly similar. You can see it [here](http://vfm.typepad.com/vermont_freedom_to_marry/files/Arguments_Against_Interracial_Marriage_and_Equal_Marriage.pdf). > > > > Most applicable to this particular post is this: > > > > I guess we are still waiting for all that calamity to come down the pipeline. > > Bookmarked, thanks! No probs. And I agree with you, **Indistinguishable** , that the quotes could be attributed better, but they all seem to be legit if you track them back. I also noticed that quoting error. Still, it makes some damn good points. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/95 "2010-08-08T06:55:58Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Fuck you, you nitwit. **Dan** , saying “Fuck you” to another poster is a violation of the Pit Rules. Please refrain from making sexual-based insults aimed at other posters. No warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/96 "2010-08-08T08:45:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s forcing them to live in a society where man+man = man+woman. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever and you & all the other anti-SSM’ers have absolutely no coherent, rational reason for believing otherwise. There is not a single argument against allowing SSM which can’t be immediately obliterated with an off the cuff rebuttal from anyone with half a brain and a sense of fair play. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/97 "2010-08-08T13:29:29Z")
And nobody’s forcing anybody to live in a particular society. either. If our friend finds himself unable to adjust to the society Americans are deciding they want to have in the 21st century, he can always go find somewhere else to live. I hear Afghanistan is nice this time of year, for instance. Some side effects, sure, but if not being allowed to act on hatred is really that big a deal to him, he’ll love it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/98 "2010-08-08T13:32:15Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > should have known better than to ask. Why - because you got a answer? _:shrugs:_ I sort of half suspected that I had posted all that before, to you or in a thread in which you were participating, and you ignored it then. OK, so you are trolling. My bad for expecting any better. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/99 "2010-08-08T13:37:34Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > That last sentence really nails it, I think. > > **“And, the Ninth Amendment, in indicating that not all such liberties are specifically mentioned in the first eight amendments, is surely relevant in showing the existence of other fundamental personal rights, now protected from state, as well as federal, infringement.”** He is not saying that the Ninth Amendment creates rights, as he says clearly earlier - > [@](#): > > I do not mean to imply that the … Ninth Amendment constitutes an independent source of rights protected from infringement by either the States or the Federal Government He is saying that the Ninth Amendment shows that when once other rights are defined, they also will be protected from state and federal interference. If you see the distinction. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433/100 "2010-08-08T13:41:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Why - because you got a answer? No, because he got a Shodananswer. It’s kinda like an answer in the same way a bic lighter is a sun. > [@Shodan](#): > > I sort of half suspected that I had posted all that before. You have. Which is why I linked to those other times you’ve posted it to, once again, emphasize what a poor argument it is and what a dishonest debator you are. You’re simply doing the exact same thing here. I would say “my bad for expecting any better”, but, to be honest, I expect nothing but this kind of crap from you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-prop-8-supporters-also-fuck-you-dishonest-news-media/549433.md?page=6)