# Fuck you, Rowan County (KY) Clerk Kim Davis **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 13, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757 "2015-08-13T18:09:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 68
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1341 "2015-09-23T00:22:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We agree so far. Astounding. Surely the fabric of the universe is in peril. > [@magellan01](#): > > **So, if the only way to really solve the problem is her being removed from office, then why jail her?** More important, if it is not going to accomplish anything, do you really want to lock someone up for following her religious convictions? > > Yet, not nearly as stupid as you. So I have that small consolation going for me. Glad we could straighten that out. The bolded sentence is the proof that you are stupid as hell and far, far dumber than me. There is no law that would allow a federal judge to remove her from office. The only recourse he has to punish her for contempt of court is to jail or fine her, and Judge Bunning has already described why he thinks fines would be insufficiently motivating. If you were smart, you would know what you were talking about before you opened your ddamned fool mouth, but you aren’t so you did. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1342 "2015-09-23T00:22:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agreed with this, too. I think the only place I disagree with most people here is jailing someone for insisting that they act in accordance with her religious views. (By the way, I am not religious.) Can you rephrase that second sentence? I literally don’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1343 "2015-09-23T00:22:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The law already has a way for her to be accommodated; she says it’s not good enough. The law must win; we are a nation of laws, not a nation of religions. I agree, again. But the law also states that she cannot simply be removed from office. As I just stated, I would hope think/hope that the Governor has some special power he can invoke to remove her. It really is an interesting legal conundrum. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > By the way, since you claim that you don’t share her viewpoint, what do you think should be done? I think you find the tastes way to remove her from office. Special election, Governor Super Special Appointment, whatever is the fastest. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1344 "2015-09-23T00:23:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, if the only way to really solve the problem is her being removed from office, then why jail her? More important, if it is not going to accomplish anything, do you really want to lock someone up for following her religious convictions? As to your first question, because unfortunately it is ultimately necessary for the state to show that it has teeth. It’s sad when it has to reach that point, but the state cannot be or be seen to be a toothless tiger. The state can’t just allow people to ignore laws and the enforcement of laws. If it did, the rule of law would break down. That’s also in large part the answer to your second question. Locking her up may not accomplish anything in the short term and in respect of Davis herself, but it’s one of those situations where the state must not allow itself to be walked over, or be seen to be doing so. And given that she can literally and metaphorically get out of jail at any time simply by resigning, my sympathy for her incarceration is precisely zero. The fact is, this woman isn’t going to jail because of her personal religious convictions. She is not being made to do something against her religious beliefs. She can resign and avoid that problem. She is going to jail because she is _crusading to impose her religion on others_; she is refusing to leave office so she can remain in a position of power from which she can try to prevent other people from not being bound by her religion. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1345 "2015-09-23T00:26:39Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Can you rephrase that second sentence? I literally don’t understand it. Yes, it was unclear do to the switch between second and third person. To rephrase: I think the only place I disagree with most people here is jailing someone for insisting that she act in accordance with her religious views. (By the way, I am not religious.) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1346 "2015-09-23T00:32:52Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > As to your first question, because unfortunately it is ultimately necessary for the state to show that it has teeth. It’s sad when it has to reach that point, but the state cannot be or be seen to be a toothless tiger. The state can’t just allow people to ignore laws and the enforcement of laws. If it did, the rule of law would break down. > > That’s also in large part the answer to your second question. Locking her up may not accomplish anything in the short term and in respect of Davis herself, but it’s one of those situations where the state must not allow itself to be walked over, or be seen to be doing so. And given that she can literally and metaphorically get out of jail at any time simply by resigning, my sympathy for her incarceration is precisely zero. > > The fact is, this woman isn’t going to jail because of her personal religious convictions. She is not being made to do something against her religious beliefs. She can resign and avoid that problem. She is going to jail because she is _crusading to impose her religion on others_; she is refusing to leave office so she can remain in a position of power from which she can try to prevent other people from not being bound by her religion. Oh, there is no doubt that she is using the situation to crusade. But I do think that the government needs to make reasonable accommodation for religious conviction. Locking someone up and/or fining them doesn’t sit right with me. Removing her from office does. The problem here is her elected post. I’m surprised something like this has come up before, but based on this case, I think every county or state should change the laws so that a rogue, grandstanding elected official cannot do what Kim Davis is doing. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1347 "2015-09-23T00:39:00Z")
I have just found out that Kim Davis’s time in jail for contempt has been used as the basis for an erotic novel called [Kim Goes To Jail: An Erotic Story](http://www.amazon.com/Kim-Goes-Jail-Erotic-Story-ebook/dp/B015FY4AV0/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1442857288&sr=1-1). I’ll bet she didn’t see _that_ coming. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1348 "2015-09-23T00:46:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, there is no doubt that she is using the situation to crusade. But I do think that the government needs to make reasonable accommodation for religious conviction. Locking someone up and/or fining them doesn’t sit right with me. Removing her from office does. The problem here is her elected post. I’m surprised something like this has come up before, but based on this case, I think every county or state should change the laws so that a rogue, grandstanding elected official cannot do what Kim Davis is doing. She could remove herself from office. That’s what resignation means. She’s refused. You keep leaving that part out. Unless she has a religious objection to not being the county clerk (and I don’t think that’s a religious conviction the state can accommodate!) she’s not being jailed or fined for following her conscience, but for refusing to give up the job she has a religious objection to doing. And you know, what? I’m ok with that. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1349 "2015-09-23T00:47:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But I do think that the government needs to make reasonable accommodation for religious conviction. Locking someone up and/or fining them doesn’t sit right with me. Removing her from office does. The reasonable accommodation being made for her religious conviction is that she can resign. The government is not in any way forcing her to issue marriage licenses. It is simply enforcing the requirements of her job. She can choose to keep the job and the duties that come with it, or she can choose to quit. What she can’t do is refuse to quit, and expect to keep the job with no consequences. Since the only consequences available to the court are fines and jail, that is what she is getting. She could end all of this tomorrow (and be free to share her views on talk shows and in the public square) by resigning. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1350 "2015-09-23T00:49:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Locking someone up and/or fining them doesn’t sit right with me. Removing her from office does. This ultimately makes no sense. This woman has made a decision she would prefer to be locked up than leave office. But you suggest that _to accommodate her_ she should be removed from office rather than locked up. Even though that’s precisely the opposite of what she herself wants. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1351 "2015-09-23T00:54:09Z")
The Government (of which Kim Davis is an elected member of) does not get a “religious accommodation” -that’s already been decided by SCOTUS - in her ROLE of “County Clerk” - she oversees an office and is responsible for issuing marriage licenses to all eligible couples. She does NOT get a say in who is eligible (beyond the legal checklist being checked). Her religious convictions are immaterial in her ROLE as a member of the govt, and thanks to the constitution, are actually REQUIRED to be set aside while performing her duties as such. As a personal individual - she can believe any batshit insane thing she likes. In her Role as County Clerk - she can pray as much as she wants so long as its done on ‘private time’ (as it were). Since she is an elected official - there are steps to remove her from office - but if she refuses to issue licenses, and stands in the way of licenses being issued - she can be ordered by the legal system to comply and then jailed if in contempt of said orders (which is what happened) so that the rights of the people she serves are not infringed upon. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1352 "2015-09-23T00:57:19Z")
I suppose (to add to my last post) one could play amateur psychologist and suggest that it would probably be a mercy to her to remove her from office because she is currently trapped by her own thoughts (and no doubt her religious backers) into her situation. To that extent you may have a point. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1353 "2015-09-23T01:19:12Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > This ultimately makes no sense. This woman has made a decision she would prefer to be locked up than leave office. But you suggest that _to accommodate her_ she should be removed from office rather than locked up. Even though that’s precisely the opposite of what she herself wants. I’m not that concerned with what she wants. Her office is there to perform certain duties. If she will not or cannot perform those duties—for any reason whatsoever—she should either resign or be removed from office. The law here gets in the way of that, but that’s not her fault. I’m interested in what the state can and should do, and the accommodation it makes for religious conviction. Jailing or fining someone for adhering to their religious compass seems like a very unAmerican thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1354 "2015-09-23T01:20:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But she has a religious objection to it, and does’;t want to resign, then want. Do you make any accommodation to prevent someone from being forced to act in a way confer to their religious convictions? I think she should resign, but barring that what can be done? What _should_ be done? She should be jailed for contempt until she either agrees to issue licenses or resigns. Surely _resigning_ isn’t against her religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1355 "2015-09-23T01:22:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not that concerned with what she wants. Her office is there to perform certain duties. If she will not or cannot perform those duties—for any reason whatsoever—she should either resign or be removed from office. The law here gets in the way of that, but that’s not her fault. I’m interested in what the state can and should do, and the accommodation it makes for religious conviction. Jailing or fining someone for adhering to their religious compass seems like a very unAmerican thing to do. She’s being jailed or fired for not doing her job. The reason is not important. We can accommodate a lot of religious practices, such as allowing long hair, or certain clothing. Allowing her not to do her job is not the kind of religious accommodation I’d generally support ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1356 "2015-09-23T01:26:19Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > The reasonable accommodation being made for her religious conviction is that she can resign. That’s no accommodation at all. That’s a blatant _lack_ of accommodation. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > The government is not in any way forcing her to issue marriage licenses. It is simply enforcing the requirements of her job. She can choose to keep the job and the duties that come with it, or she can choose to quit. That would be great in my book. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > What she can’t do is refuse to quit, and expect to keep the job with no consequences. The laws of the sate surrounding her elected office enable her to do just that. Now, if there was a statute that said something to the effect that if such an elected official refuses to carry out the duties of her office, she can be removed by the County Supervisor, Governor, etc., then we wouldn’t have a problem. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Since the only consequences available to the court are fines and jail, that is what she is getting. She could end all of this tomorrow (and be free to share her views on talk shows and in the public square) by resigning. I wish she would. But she’s being a twit and is shielded by the laws of the state. The problem here is that the laws did not contemplate a scenario like this. And she is using that to her advantage. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1357 "2015-09-23T01:28:56Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > She could remove herself from office. That’s what resignation means. She’s refused. You keep leaving that part out. Unless she has a religious objection to not being the county clerk (and I don’t think that’s a religious conviction the state can accommodate!) she’s not being jailed or fined for following her conscience, but for refusing to give up the job she has a religious objection to doing. And you know, what? I’m ok with that. No, I have not been leaving that out. And while you might be okay using the power of the state to force someone to act contrary to her religious convictions, I’m not. [shrug] I found it odd how people just ignore the reasons for the founding of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1358 "2015-09-23T01:29:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agreed with this, too. I think the only place I disagree with most people here is jailing someone for insisting that they act in accordance with her religious views. (By the way, I am not religious.) No one wants her jailed for her religious convictions, they want her jailed for breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1359 "2015-09-23T01:32:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, I have not been leaving that out. And while you might be okay using the power of the state to force someone to act contrary to her religious convictions, I’m not. [shrug] I found it odd how people just ignore the reasons for the founding of the country. No one posting in this thread has ignored the reasons for the founding of the country. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757/1360 "2015-09-23T01:34:07Z")
> [@simster](#): > > The Government (of which Kim Davis is an elected member of) does not get a “religious accommodation” -that’s already been decided by SCOTUS - in her ROLE of “County Clerk” - she oversees an office and is responsible for issuing marriage licenses to all eligible couples. > > She does NOT get a say in who is eligible (beyond the legal checklist being checked). > > Her religious convictions are immaterial in her ROLE as a member of the govt, and thanks to the constitution, are actually REQUIRED to be set aside while performing her duties as such. > > As a personal individual - she can believe any batshit insane thing she likes. In her Role as County Clerk - she can pray as much as she wants so long as its done on ‘private time’ (as it were). > > Since she is an elected official - there are steps to remove her from office - but if she refuses to issue licenses, and stands in the way of licenses being issued - she can be ordered by the legal system to comply and then jailed if in contempt of said orders (which is what happened) so that the rights of the people she serves are not infringed upon. How about her right to act in accordance with her religious conscience? I find it odd how easily that is dispensed with. Religious accommodation is a balancing act. Ideally, I’d say, just allow someone else to sign the documents. If that is unworkable, remove her from office. Put her in jail in an attempt to knuckle under and act in a way that is counter to her religious beliefs, no. When you want to do that, you’re grandstanding to make a point even more than she is. And the state should not do that, to should tread lightly around religious accommodation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757.md?page=67) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-rowan-county-ky-clerk-kim-davis/727757.md?page=69)