# Fuck you, shitty teachers unfamiliar with WV v. Barnette!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [March 10, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562 "2004-03-10T22:46:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/1 "2004-03-10T22:46:31Z")
Fuck you, you fucking fuckers. When you got your masters in education, didn’t you have 10 minutes to learn about the rights of your fucking students?
Oh, and you fuckers who just ignore it are even worse.
You “don’t care” if it’s unconstitutional to force your students to say the pledge? Just kill yourself. Now.
And I don’t fucking care how many people you know are fighting in Iraq; it’s irrelevant.
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### Author:  [@FisherQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FisherQueen)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/2 "2004-03-10T22:53:47Z")
Um. I don’t know if I’m a shitty teacher or not. I’m not familiar with the case you cited. It’s been a long time since I was asked to lead the pledge of allegiance in my classroom. But I wouldn’t force a kid to say it, I’d just expect him to stand quietly, then sit down again when the others were finished.
I assume you’re talking about something specific? Did you decide details would bore us? Every year, I spend dozens of hours teaching people to identify verbs- I’m not easily bored.
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### Author:  [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/3 "2004-03-10T23:19:41Z")
WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE, [319 U.S. 624 (1943)](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=319&invol=624)
The case involved a West Virginia rule requiring all students to salute the flag and recite the pledge of allegence. It held:
> [@](#):
>
> It seems trite but necessary to say that the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings. There is no mysticism in the American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority.
>
> The case is made difficult not b ecause the principles of its decision are obscure but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.
>
> If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.
>
> We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.
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### Author:  [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/4 "2004-03-10T23:29:10Z")
Well, if you don’t force anyone to say the pledge, then you’re fine, **FisherQueen**. My anger is directed at assholes who force kids to say the pledge of allegiance despite the fact that it has been ruled unconstitutional to do so since 1943.
The details:
Since 7th grade, I have believed that the Pledge of Allegiance was unconstitutional and refused to say it. At the beginning I sat in protest, but later I was convinced to stand in respect. I never deemed it necessary to say anything during the Pledge, but my classmates seemed to think they were defending The Security of this Great Nation ™ by heckling me during its recital.
Fast forward to now, my sophomore year in high school. I am standing siltently for the pledge as usual, when my homeroom teacher tells me that he will be contacting the vice principal, and I will have to fill out some forms in which I justify my reasons for not saying the pledge.
Nonsense, I say. It’s my constitutional right; why do I need to fill out paperwork defending myself? Maybe they would like me to fill out paperwork whenever I criticize Bush, too.
I then head to my first period class. One student in that class also in my homeroom tries to start arguing, and soon the teacher joins in.
Teacher: “Why don’t you say the pledge of allegiance? Don’t you like living in America? Don’t you enjoy the freedoms that the soldiers are fighting for?”
Me: “:rolleyes: I don’t say the pledge of allegiance because of the words ‘under God’. And it’s not like Saddam was going to invade the country or anything, so don’t bring that up.”
Teacher: “When someone in my homeroom doesn’t say the pledge, I tell him to…”
Me (interrupting): “What? That’s unconstitutional.”
Teacher: “I don’t care.”
Then he told me to move a few seats away from the heckler and it was over.
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### Author:  [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/5 "2004-03-11T01:58:42Z")
You’re right and they’re wrong, but you knew that.
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### Author:  [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/6 "2004-03-11T02:12:15Z")
Your OP notwithstanding, you are clearly a bright student, with a sense of humor. I just suggest you try to distinguish battles that must be fought from battles that you are better off just ignoring. Fight this one and after alot of grief and your parents money, you might win. But then where are you? Next year you will be making up all the classes you missed, and the dumb ass teacher will still be there. Chose your battles well, not all of them are worth the effort.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/7 "2004-03-11T02:17:09Z")
Speaking as a teacher…if you hear anything, the _slightest_ word, from Administration about your beliefs, or a single teacher brings it up _in any way_, contact your local brach of the ACLU _at once_. This kind of shit must be stopped at the source, and right away.
Personally, I do the same thing. I rise when it is said, out of respect for the beliefs of others, but I will not say it myself, for various reasons.
Don’t let them bully you. Drop a dime (well, quarter, or maybe $.35) on them immediately.
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### Author:  [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/8 "2004-03-11T02:38:32Z")
While I agree with your sentiments, it seems to me you have not been in contact with your local branch of the ACLU recently. If your issue is not one they have chosen to pursue your SOL. Besides shouldn’t students be more concerned with obtaining an education? It is fairly certain that the world and its problems will still be around for them to save after they complete their education.
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### Author:  [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/9 "2004-03-11T03:08:52Z")
Interesting thread. While in 7th grade at a public school, I refused to stand for the pledge one morning and was written up and sent to the principle’s office. The principle lectured me for a long time and then said he would tear up the suspension form if I stood for the pledge. I agreed since it dawned on me that my father would probably kick the shit out of me if I went home after being suspended for not standing and saying the POA. This was about 15 years ago and I don’t know what would happen these days if someone did it at the same school.
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### Author:  [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/10 "2004-03-11T03:16:06Z")
Print out a few copies of _Barnette_, which I’ve linked above. Have them ready to hand to whoever starts bitching at you. Few enough people (teachers, students or administrators) in a high school have seen an actual Supreme Court case that by just waving it around you’ll be able to intimidate some of them. Knowing some choice quotes can help (I like the section of Justice Roberts’ opinion I quoted, particularly the last two paragraphs – though you may want to be careful about quoting the “any official, high or petty” language to the vice principal, as he’ll be pretty well aware of which end of that spectrum he falls).
If you get called into the vice principal’s office, instead of filling out the forms, hand him the case.
A couple of years ago, there was a long thread on the boards about this very question that had some interesting discussion and debate. You may want to look for it.
Good luck.
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### Author:  [@dinoboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dinoboy)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/11 "2004-03-11T05:50:59Z")
I am sorry for your frustration (and agree with you), but I have to _kind_ of lean to the “fight the fights worth fighting” thing (a la **askeptic** and others). Tell your teacher (politely, remember your manners regardless of theirs) that you are not bound to say the allegiance by any law and you prefer not to say it.
Remember, people do not like to be corrected/confronted in a harsh manner. I’m not trying to imply you do/did this (or instigated such) but as you seem somewhat passionate about it now, and in the moment, it may have come out this way.
As a masters of ed student myself (and a sub teach while in the process) I am surprised at such a reaction by the teacher/admin.
If this is any help, I do not say the allegiance either (but I do stand).
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### Author:  [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/12 "2004-03-11T13:39:36Z")
> [@askeptic](#):
>
> I just suggest you try to distinguish battles that must be fought from battles that you are better off just ignoring…Chose your battles well, not all of them are worth the effort.
And who are you to say which battles are worth the effort?
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/13 "2004-03-11T14:29:51Z")
> [@askeptic](#):
>
> While I agree with your sentiments, it seems to me you have not been in contact with your local branch of the ACLU recently. If your issue is not one they have chosen to pursue your SOL. Besides shouldn’t students be more concerned with obtaining an education? It is fairly certain that the world and its problems will still be around for them to save after they complete their education.
Are you seriously suggesting that the ACLU is the only possible mechanism for this student to defend his constitutional rights? That if the ACLU is uninterested or unable to take an interest, he should just suck it up and deal?
I no idea that the ACLU was so powerful and important. I may have to join.
- Rick
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/14 "2004-03-11T14:38:16Z")
Goof for you, **agiantdwarf**! The whole “choose your battles” is, IMO, one of the worst things an adult can tell a teenager. Just because adults tend to be beaten down and discouraged is no excuse for them to stomp on your energy and idealism.
You pick the battles you want, and ignore those trying to tell you not to. Might be worth finding out who that teacher has forced to say the pledge and getting in touch with that student.
There’s scarcely any better education than learning your civic rights and responsibilities, and that’s what you’re doing. Good on you!
Daniel
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### Author:  [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/15 "2004-03-11T15:38:57Z")
The post of **Left Hand of Dorkness** – especially that bit about “There’s scarcely any better education than learning your civic rights and responsibilities” – got me thinking. Have you considered turning this into a school project, say an essay you might write for a social studies class or a civics class?
Other possibilities include:
Suggesting it as a topic for the debate team or forensics club.
Get it discussed at the next all-school assembly.
Raise the issue at the next school board meeting.
Write a letter to the local newspaper.
Write a letter to the superintendent.
Oh, and one can stand up for one’s principles anywhere, even in the principal’s office. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/16 "2004-03-11T16:08:03Z")
My opinion is that _every_ fight is worth it if it means something to you.
My mother has always said that I was so stubborn that I _would_ cut off my nose to spite my face. I can’t argue that because I’ve taken stands that I had originally had no interest in one way or the other just because someone irritated me about it.
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### Author:  [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/17 "2004-03-11T16:50:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Are you seriously suggesting that the ACLU is the only possible mechanism for this student to defend his constitutional rights? That if the ACLU is uninterested or unable to take an interest, he should just suck it up and deal?
Bricker, I ask this out of curiosity, rather then rhetoric: What would you suggest a student do to defend his constitutional rights? It’s not like he can call up the local bar’s referal service, get a consult, drive over during the daytime, pay a retainer, etc…
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### Author:  [@NotMrKnowItAll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotMrKnowItAll)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/18 "2004-03-11T17:03:41Z")
**agiantdwarf**
Good luck to you. Don’t listen to the bleating sheep that tell you to “choose you BAAAAAttles.” Plan what you do carefully–teachers will lie to save their ass and expel yours. Filling out forms, providing you get a copy, may be good, as they can be sent to the Superindentent, The newpaper, or whoever. But, don’t listen to me, listen to yourself.
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### Author:  [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/19 "2004-03-11T17:21:18Z")
> [@Metacom](#):
>
> Bricker, I ask this out of curiosity, rather then rhetoric: What would you suggest a student do to defend his constitutional rights? It’s not like he can call up the local bar’s referal service, get a consult, drive over during the daytime, pay a retainer, etc…
I ask this out of curiosity. Do you expect someone to give up their Constitutional rights just because the ACLU won’t take the case? Why _not_ call lawyers? If there is a possible financial payout, then the lawyer may take the case on contingency. If not, the lawyer may take the case pro bono for the publicity or at a reduced rate.
There is no reason to give up before trying to fight.
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### Author:  [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/20 "2004-03-11T17:40:23Z")
> [@Who\_me?](#):
>
> I ask this out of curiosity. Do you expect someone to give up their Constitutional rights just because the ACLU won’t take the case?
Um, no. That’s why I asked **Bricker** , a lawyer, what he would suggest the kid do.
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