# Fuck you, shitty teachers unfamiliar with WV v. Barnette! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 10, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562 "2004-03-10T22:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/21 "2004-03-11T18:01:00Z")
I would imagine he’d say to call a lawyer. Your question made it sound like he couldn’t do that for some reason. > [@](#): > > It’s not like he can call up the local bar’s referal service, get a consult, drive over during the daytime, pay a retainer, etc… Why couldn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/22 "2004-03-11T18:04:31Z")
Why not wear a black armband to protest this violation of your Constitutional rights? Then you could get to hand out copies of _Tinker v. Des Moines Community School District_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/23 "2004-03-11T18:16:28Z")
> [@Who\_me?](#): > > I would imagine he’d say to call a lawyer. Your question made it sound like he couldn’t do that for some reason. > > Why couldn’t he? Because minors often lack the resources (transportation, money, availability during weekday working hours) to conduct a survey of local lawyers? Perhaps I’m wrong, but finding a lawyer willing to do pro-bono work for a teenager who feels his rights are being violated may be difficult without the help of some other organization. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/24 "2004-03-11T18:18:23Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Speaking as a teacher…if you hear anything, the _slightest_ word, from Administration about your beliefs, or a single teacher brings it up _in any way_, contact your local brach of the ACLU _at once_. This kind of shit must be stopped at the source, and right away. > > Personally, I do the same thing. I rise when it is said, out of respect for the beliefs of others, but I will not say it myself, for various reasons. > > Don’t let them bully you. Drop a dime (well, quarter, or maybe $.35) on them immediately. I used to wonder why my friends would scrimp and save to send their kids to private schools and avoid public school teachers. Now I know. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/25 "2004-03-11T18:24:23Z")
The teacher and the school administration are bound to uphold the law, as are all citizens. If you make them aware of the law, I’m certain they’ll oblige. Just provide them with a copy of the law in question. If they give you any guff, tell them you’d be happy to have a lawyer come in to explain things to them. Keep things friendly. There’s no need to get angry. Having the law on your side puts you in a strong position, and the school administration should recognize this. Also, many firms do a certain amount of pro-bono work. This particular case would eat up about an hour of an attorney’s time. Lead-pipe cinch. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/26 "2004-03-11T18:37:30Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > I just suggest you try to distinguish battles that must be fought from battles that you are better off just ignoring. . . . Chose your battles well, not all of them are worth the effort. Choosing your battles is an important principle in everyone’s life - but, to me at least, this is a battle I would choose to fight in an instant. We live in a democracy, a “free country”, but history has demonstrated that rights that aren’t defended tend to disappear. If people choose not to speak out, then it becomes easier to silence them in the future; the Powers That Be have no incentive to respect our rights unless we’re willing to fight for them. You’re defending your freedoms at the grassroots level when you educate your educators about the law, and if you have to, it may be worth calling in the bigger guns. But whatever you may decide to do in the future, don’t back down because the fight _could_ be hard - wait until it _is_ hard before you make that decision. Kudos for standing up for yourself on this issue! Democracy only works if the people are willing to make some noise. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/27 "2004-03-12T02:26:06Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Because minors often lack the resources (transportation, money, availability during weekday working hours) to conduct a survey of local lawyers? Perhaps I’m wrong, but finding a lawyer willing to do pro-bono work for a teenager who feels his rights are being violated may be difficult without the help of some other organization. It might be, but again, this is a kid with principles he believes in which _have been affirmed by the highest court in the land_. This isn’t just a footstomping over something petty, it’s about one of the single most fundamental freedoms that Americans have. If this isn’t worth doing a bit of work to find a lawyer (if Agiantdwarf’s efforts at asserting his rights on his own fail) then what on earth is? And truth be told, it’s unlikely that this situation would really even need a constitutional genius. Walking in with any lawyer, even a family practice lawyer, is often all one needs to be taken seriously. If that first meeting doesn’t net results, then finding someone whose practice is geared more toward civil rights/constitutional issues. (It should be noted that the ACLU often steps in when things have escalated this far, because there’s a point to be made by that juncture.) But I absolutely recommend, **agiantdwarf** , that you print out a summary of _Barnette_ and perhaps a few articles – which can be easily found with everybody’s friend Google – which affirm that students cannot be compelled to recite the Pledge and present them to the teacher(s) in question and the Vice Principal. Even if you aren’t made to go to see the VP, do it preemptorily for the protection of your rights and those of your fellow students. As already suggested, be kind, polite and nonconfrontational about it. You feel strongly, but you don’t have to win an argument here, because its already been won. Your entire purpose is simply to remind the folks in your school of that fact. And hats off to you for being conscientous about your rights. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/28 "2004-03-12T02:37:46Z")
> [@Balle\_M](#): > > I used to wonder why my friends would scrimp and save to send their kids to private schools and avoid public school teachers. > > Now I know. Care to explain that one? Does believing in the Constitution make me a bad teacher? Or are you just a fuckwit that believes that teachers should regurgitate the pablum for the students, without making them think and feel and _learn?_ ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/29 "2004-03-12T03:23:20Z")
Please don’t let this thread degenerate into “let’s bash the public school teachers.” Yes, clearly the teachers the OP mentions are being wrongheaded about this, but not all teachers are like this. And who’s to say that private school teachers are immune to this? As for me, I stand during the Pledge, and say it, minus the “under God” part if I feel awake enough to speak. All I ask of my students during the Pledge is that, if they choose not to say the Pledge, they at least be quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/30 "2004-03-12T06:37:45Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > …I just suggest you try to distinguish battles that must be fought from battles that you are better off just ignoring… The best piece of advice I have heared in a long time! ---
**Author:** ![Morrigoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@Morrigoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrigoon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/31 "2004-03-12T07:29:16Z")
The lesson of learning to pick your battles is as important as the lesson of learning to protect your rights. If this is, in fact, that important to you, fight the battle. If this is something you do “just because” and are only defending your actions because you happen to be right, not because you really, honestly, object to having to say the pledge, then it is not worth fighting. The point of picking your battles is learning that in order to prevent undermining your ability to fight battles, you must not fight every SINGLE battle that crosses your path. Pick a few which are worth the sacrifice and fight them. As far as what to do now (since it sounds like it IS that important to you), I suggest you print out a copy for each student in your class, as well as the teacher, and prepare a 5 minute speech on the importance of the constitution and the first amendment. When your teacher challenges you, ask her to allow you to do a 5 minute presentation on why you will not say it. Pass out the copies and give your speech. You may want to present this to your parents first, to give you a chance to practice and refine your presentation. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/32 "2004-03-12T13:13:09Z")
> [@](#): > > We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Beautiful. If only it were true. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/33 "2004-03-12T15:01:19Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Care to explain that one? Does believing in the Constitution make me a bad teacher? Or are you just a fuckwit that believes that teachers should regurgitate the pablum for the students, without making them think and feel and _learn?_ Look at **Morrigoon’s** suggestion: - Study the relevant Supreme Court ruling - Prepare a short speech explaining why the ruling affirms your position - Get the entire class involved in the process Now, look at **your** suggestion: -Call the ACLU! Of course, if they follow Morrigoon’s method they might actually _learn_ something. Oh…and your use of “fuckwit” amply demonstrates the quality of your vocabulary. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/34 "2004-03-12T15:17:27Z")
> [@Balle\_M](#): > > Oh…and your use of “fuckwit” amply demonstrates the quality of your vocabulary. Ohhhh, I am dazzled by your superior rhetoric! When you bother to learn some basic debate skills, and learn about _ad hominem_ attacks and straw men, then come back and we’ll see. I’ll try to put this in simple words, so even **you** can understand: The OP was being verbally harrassed by a teacher _who has received instruction on that specific issue._ There is no grey area here. The teacher, both teachers, were 100% _in the wrong!_ Your suggestion was idiotic. “Prepare a speech.” Right. The teacher is **not** going to allow this in class, given their initial response to his actions. The threat of Administrative involvement was made by the Homeroom teacher. The only way morons like this teacher learn is when they are hit over the head with it. My suggestion was that the OP **not** roll over and play dead, but fight fire with fire. The student **already knows** the Supreme Court ruling, otherwise he would not be ranting! Read my post - I said “Call the ACLU,” not “Sue their pants off.” Most often in cases like this one, a call from the local branch of the ACLU asking for information about the incident is enough to cause Admin to remember what the laws are. So, **Balle\_M,** you are guilty of cranial-anal reversal. Fuckwit you are, and fuckwit you remain. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/35 "2004-03-12T16:14:28Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Ohhhh, I am dazzled by your superior rhetoric! When you bother to learn some basic debate skills, and learn about _ad hominem_ attacks and straw men, then come back and we’ll see. > > I’ll try to put this in simple words, so even **you** can understand: The OP was being verbally harrassed by a teacher _who has received instruction on that specific issue._ There is no grey area here. The teacher, both teachers, were 100% _in the wrong!_ Your suggestion was idiotic. “Prepare a speech.” Right. The teacher is **not** going to allow this in class, given their initial response to his actions. The threat of Administrative involvement was made by the Homeroom teacher. The only way morons like this teacher learn is when they are hit over the head with it. My suggestion was that the OP **not** roll over and play dead, but fight fire with fire. The student **already knows** the Supreme Court ruling, otherwise he would not be ranting! Read my post - I said “Call the ACLU,” not “Sue their pants off.” Most often in cases like this one, a call from the local branch of the ACLU asking for information about the incident is enough to cause Admin to remember what the laws are. > > So, **Balle\_M,** you are guilty of cranial-anal reversal. Fuckwit you are, and fuckwit you remain. Who suggested he play dead? I suggested he stand up for HIMSELF, not drag in the fucking ACLU. Of course that me be out of your field of vision, what with you head shoved so far up your ass. We had a similar incident here. An asshole teacher (hmm…why did I just think of you?) told a student remove or cover up a t-shirt with a mildly anti-war statement on it. Neither the teacher or the school administration would hear the student out. Somehow managing to refrain from calling the ACLU, he got the rest of his class involved and they took the fight to the school board and won. No more censorship and a written reprimand to the teacher. Now…and I realize that this may be difficult with that pea-size brain of yours…do you think that they might have learned more by doing it themselves? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/36 "2004-03-12T17:08:47Z")
Did your mother have any children that lived? My fiancee works for the ACLU, so I am very well acquainted with what they can and cannot do. Students who attempt to take on a hostile Administration need support, and the ACLU can offer that. If you read the OP, you will see that the harrassment was coming from both teachers _and_ students. I have let my 1st Period American Government students read a slightly edited version of this thread. The vote is 27 to 2 that you are a idiot. The dissenting voters think you are an moron. Have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/37 "2004-03-12T17:54:17Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Did your mother have any children that lived? > > My fiancee works for the ACLU, so I am very well acquainted with what they can and cannot do. Students who attempt to take on a hostile Administration need support, and the ACLU can offer that. If you read the OP, you will see that the harrassment was coming from both teachers _and_ students. > > I have let my 1st Period American Government students read a slightly edited version of this thread. The vote is 27 to 2 that you are a idiot. The dissenting voters think you are an moron. > > Have a nice day. Thank God. I’d feel bad if a class of developmentally challenged students led by a peckerhead such as yourself AGREED with me. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/38 "2004-03-13T16:21:48Z")
Ignoring the little angry ‘you suck’ thing that is apparently now going on: welcome to the club, **agiantdwarf**. I’m another one who doesn’t say the pledge. I also choose not to stand for it, not out of disrespect for anyone/thing, but because if I’m doing something productive in homeroom, I may as well continue doing so rather than wasting that minute. I’ve had a couple run-ins with teachers about it. If you know what you’re talking about and basically call their bluff, most of them will usually back down, because they’re stupid. Don’t listen to the ‘choose your battles’ shit, because that’s making the assumption that this isn’t a battle worth choosing. My favorite part, though, of the obviously-inevitable argument that comes up with some people is: “Wait. So that ‘liberty and justice for all’ really means ‘liberty and justice for everyone who chooses to swear their allegiance to a mass-produced piece of cloth?’ Silly me!” ---
**Author:** ![dinoboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dinoboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dinoboy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562/39 "2004-03-13T20:39:41Z")
I would like to comment on the “choose your battles” statement further. That statement is a wholly personal proposal, meaning _you_ need to weigh the value of such a fight: the cost in effort and struggle compared to the overall gain. (please refer back to **Morrigoon’s** post as it is more eloquent than I could produce) Here’s the issue as I see it: **Are your rights being violated?** Absolutely, I doubt anyone who is familiar with the constitution would think otherwise. **Is it a big deal?** Apparently to you (and others on this thread), however, ask yourself; are you (or is anyone) really being _oppressed_ by this? (some will say that this is not the point, but I think the degree of a violation is an important aspect for choosing a battle’s worth). **Will this fight gain you much?** Basically, you won’t have to say some words with which you already don’t agree. Though it seems that your heart and mind are ready to fight for your constitutional rights, is this battle necessary right now? Or are you simply fighting because you’re right? My initial advice would be to wait until you are outside of the school system and you can go back to the issue then. **But** that doesn’t seem like what you want so: If you would like to continue this fight, (earlier suggestions for) preparation would be necessary. Perhaps you could set up a meeting with the Admin., maybe enlist your friends’ or parent’s help (did you mention anything about them - I may have missed it). You will need to present a respectable, objective argument. It will be more difficult for you to be taken seriously by the Admin due to your age, but, win or lose, the experience may be worth it. The ACLU may be the cavalry here, but I would use them last - If you want to learn anything from this, **you** need to do the work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shitty-teachers-unfamiliar-with-wv-v-barnette/233562.md?page=1)