# Fuck you. Shovel your sidewalk. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 4, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141 "2011-02-04T13:56:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/301 "2011-02-12T23:57:51Z")
> [@LilyoftheField](#): > > No one can respond to Anaamika’s inquiry? The walks are cleared…and salted/sanded…and yet, somehow, ice forms! That sounds dangerousl! How is this even possible, if walkways have been cleared and/or salted and sanded??? 😕 Is it possible that ice could actually form in spite of this? Well, if there is sand down, it doesn’t really matter if there is ice. The sand is for traction. I grew up in Calgary where they spread sand/gravel on the streets instead of salt. Of course it is possible for ice to form even if salt is used. Regular NaCl is only good to about -9C or 15F. There are other ice melting formulas that are available but all only work to a certain temp. or probably cause too much damage to the concrete it is being used on. ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/302 "2011-02-13T00:04:03Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Well, if there is sand down, it doesn’t really matter if there is ice. The sand is for traction. I grew up in Calgary where they spread sand/gravel on the streets instead of salt. Of course it is possible for ice to form even if salt is used. Regular NaCl is only good to about -9C or 15F. There are other ice melting formulas that are available but all only work to a certain temp. or probably cause too much damage to the concrete it is being used on. Thank you, Ike - that is all that I was asking… ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/303 "2011-02-13T02:05:25Z")
All the people saying “just walk in the street” must live in little tiny rural neighborhoods where this is actually doable. I live along a 6-lane road with blind curves where people routinely go about 50 mph. It doesn’t even have a shoulder. I nearly hit a pedestrian just a couple of weeks ago who was trying to avoid walking on the unshoveled sidewalk by walking in the middle of my lane in the dark wearing a black coat. If I had run her over, it wouldn’t have been my fault, but she’d still be dead. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/304 "2011-02-13T02:25:17Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > **Ispolkom** , you’re pretty much channelling everything I want to say. Keep up the good work! 🙂 Thank you. I just think of the neighbors down the block who bought their house in 1952 and still manage to clear their sidewalk grass-to-grass, and who walk every day to morning Mass. I’m not much for religion, but I figure shoveling my sidewalk does show them respect. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/305 "2011-02-13T02:42:33Z")
The ice could be coming from melt-off running down from the banks of snow (I mean, barring tiny Zambonis). ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/306 "2011-02-13T03:06:35Z")
> [@diggerwam](#): > > I’d like to think that if I noticed my neighbors house was not being kept up to standard, my first thought would be concern for their well being, not knee jerk name calling. I may even help my neighbor out, ya know, for the good of the neighborhood at large. Right. I’m sure that you’re like Mother Teresa in your neighbourhood, just filled with concern about your fellow man. But some of us who actually use our own two feet to get around walk further than just down the block. I walk about 2km to work every day - am I meant to carry a shovel with me and clear every sidewalk I see? Am I meant to be so filled with concern that I go knock on every persons door to see if they’re okay? Would you like it if I knocked on your door to inquire after your health every single day until you do what you’re supposed to do? > [@LilyoftheField](#): > > No one can respond to Anaamika’s inquiry? The walks are cleared…and salted/sanded…and yet, somehow, ice forms! That sounds dangerousl! How is this even possible, if walkways have been cleared and/or salted and sanded??? 😕 Of course it’s _possible_, you halfwit. It’s much less likely that ice will form on a properly shovelled path, but it’s still possible. Not one person has said that it’s impossible for ice to form in any other way. In **Anaamika** ’s case, it sounds to me like there is some other source of water, such as the melting snow banks that **Cat Whisperer** mentions, or dripping water from eaves. Yes, that can happen. That’s a good occasion to use sand, since it provides traction even if some ice is still present. The problem with your plan (leave the snow because it’s safer that way, and conveniently allows you to be lazy) is that you end up with the ice caused by people tramping down the snow AND the ice formed from other sources, such as melt. Ice formed under snow is even more dangerous since you can’t see it. In situations where it’s impossible to get rid of some amount of ice, you clear it as best you can and cover it in sand or some other grit. In your world view, where ice is perfectly safe if it’s covered by a nice coat of snow, and falling into snow is just like falling into a soft cuddly cloud, I’m sure this seems crazy to you. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/307 "2011-02-13T03:49:21Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I > _Seriously_, dude? Equivocate harder, retard. > ( Make a note to yourself. In a few weeks or months or however long it takes to get some perspective, come back to this thread. And ask yourself why I–someone whose very livelihood often involves detecting cases of equivocation–would say that it is you who have equivocated. You used the phrase “The sidewalk is for walking” to mean “The sidewalk is for walking” in one context, and “The sidewalk is for everyone to walk on” in another context. (You used the phrase only once, of course, but you intended it with two different forces when considered under two of the different contexts the utterance was embedded in.) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/308 "2011-02-13T17:09:59Z")
Question for you dwellers of Snowlocaust, where are you supposed to get the sand and salt for the sidewalks? Other than the local park and the beach, I don’t know where I would actually get sand. As far as salt goes, is regular Morton’s salt good enough or is there some special kind of salt? And how much do you use? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/309 "2011-02-13T17:26:46Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Question for you dwellers of Snowlocaust, where are you supposed to get the sand and salt for the sidewalks? Other than the local park and the beach, I don’t know where I would actually get sand. As far as salt goes, is regular Morton’s salt good enough or is there some special kind of salt? And how much do you use? The Hardware store stocks up on it. Heck, around Philly the larger drug stores have the stuff. Morton’s salt kinda works. Kind of hard to get enough of it to cover a walk however. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/310 "2011-02-13T17:31:25Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Question for you dwellers of Snowlocaust, where are you supposed to get the sand and salt for the sidewalks? Other than the local park and the beach, I don’t know where I would actually get sand. As far as salt goes, is regular Morton’s salt good enough or is there some special kind of salt? And how much do you use? Twenty-pound bags for $2-$10 at the local supermarket up here. One bag is just enough to cover my “holds-four-cars-parked-end-to-end” driveway and the sidewalk on my property (which is about 30-40 yards long). The more expensive varieties either function in lower ambient temperatures, contain sand or other anti-skid ingredients, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/311 "2011-02-13T18:01:04Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > As far as salt goes, is regular Morton’s salt good enough or is there some special kind of salt? And how much do you use? Rock salt–the salt grains are the size of the eraser on the end of a pencil (give or take). You buy it by the five, ten, or twenty-pound bag. Pretty much everywhere has it: supermarkets, places like Home Depot, gas stations, even corner stores might have some. As for “how much,” you use whatever it takes to cover the area you want to keep ice-free. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/312 "2011-02-13T20:18:09Z")
A reminder to all us snowy place dwellers - in all their usual infinite wisdom, the snow melt disappeared from store shelves last year just as we were heading into our snowiest time of year. If this happens in your area, you might want to stock up now. We don’t use actual salt; we use [Alaskan Ice Melter](http://www.icemelter.ca/products/alaskan_e.php) which has calcium chloride, not sodium chloride. It’s blue so you can tell where you sprinkled it and fine enough to give you some grit as well as the melting action. ETA: Cities including Calgary are using [road brine (or pickle)](http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_104_0_0_35/http%3B/content.calgary.ca/CCA/City+Hall/Business+Units/Roads/Snow+and+Ice+Control/Anti+Icing+program.htm) to prevent icing. ---
**Author:** ![mcott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@mcott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcott)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/313 "2011-02-14T03:01:45Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Question for you dwellers of Snowlocaust, where are you supposed to get the sand and salt for the sidewalks? Other than the local park and the beach, I don’t know where I would actually get sand. As far as salt goes, is regular Morton’s salt good enough or is there some special kind of salt? And how much do you use? Well, for myself, kitty litter works well for grip (grit). To be honest, I live in a basement apartment, and just stomp through the snow to get out. The upstairs people shovel the front steps (where I get my mail in the front hall). There are bags of sand and salt in the hall ($2 - $4 each as mentioned, and readily available), and the city plows the sidewalk, which it owns. Part of the road infrastructure. If they need to do snowbank removal again this year, I’ll try to take a picture of one of the “monster sized” snowblowers. They’re quite awesome. 🙂 The best / most ironic part of snow removal is that if one is parked on a street when operations are taking place, they ticket you, then tow your car - not to an impound lot, but to a random street in the neighborhood that’s been cleared already. You now get to find your car :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/314 "2011-02-14T03:43:34Z")
Earlier today, I was out trying to get some stubborn ice off the driveway. I sprinkled rock salt–and heard it cracking the ice as it worked. Maybe tomorrow, when backing out for my drive to work, I won’t find that I have a speed bump in my driveway. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/315 "2011-02-14T03:51:46Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Earlier today, I was out trying to get some stubborn ice off the driveway. I sprinkled rock salt–and heard it cracking the ice as it worked. Maybe tomorrow, when backing out for my drive to work, I won’t find that I have a speed bump in my driveway. Dynamite would have been quicker. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/316 "2011-02-14T04:20:14Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > Dynamite would have been quicker. True, but a little overkill. I want to get rid of the ice, not put a crater in the driveway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/317 "2011-02-14T04:49:26Z")
Hey, but then you don’t have to go to work! “I can’t come in - I have a crater in my driveway.” (We’ll just ignore public transit.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/318 "2011-02-14T05:08:31Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > (We’ll just ignore public transit.) So you’re familiar with Lethbridge’s public transit: “No matter where you want to go, we don’t go there.” ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/319 "2011-02-14T05:54:00Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Hey, but then you don’t have to go to work! “I can’t come in - I have a crater in my driveway.” (We’ll just ignore public transit.) I am SO going to use that next time I need a mental health day! My last good excuse was to call in stupid. Since starting to read this thread, I’ve learned that we do have a snow shovel at work. The shredder guy uses it to clean up. I’ve also found some blue de-icer and a bag of rock salt. When next time it snows, I’ll be the busy one, digging and sprinkling. I’ll even move my car and shovel the snow into the creekbed. If anyone dares to park in my spot, I’ll give him such an evil eye that he will fall over dead. Stops making fun. I’m so happy that I don’t live in a place where snow is a problem. All of you folks who have to deal with it have my sympathy. Now be nice when I start complaining in July about the heat. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141/320 "2011-02-14T16:02:21Z")
I was expecting people to say “Fuck you. Shovel the city’s sidewalks.” 🙂 Thank you to those who answered. I am sure it wasn’t because of the melting, because this month is the first time it’s gotten above freezing here in months, but I guess once it’s down, the top snow probably packs down the rest, so even when they clean it, they can’t get through the bottom layer. It is very hard to walk on them, though. At least we have these beautiful brand-new bus stations for people to wait, but my road is “supposed” to be pedestrian-friendly. It’s just part of living here in the northeast; not having completely clear sidewalks to walk on. > [@mcott](#): > > The best / most ironic part of snow removal is that if one is parked on a street when operations are taking place, they ticket you, then tow your car - not to an impound lot, but to a random street in the neighborhood that’s been cleared already. You now get to find your car :eek: As if it isn’t scary enough to come out and find your car missing. We use this special kind of salt that works really well - I have forgotten what it was called, as my SO insists on doing all of that stuff (he’s very worried I will take a spill). I’ll see if I can look it up. But lots and lots of people sell rock salt here, YogSosoth, and they keep it in stock pretty much all winter. Don’t go trying to buy any right after a snowstorm, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-shovel-your-sidewalk/570141.md?page=17)