# Fuck you, Spectrum **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 26, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131 "2004-04-26T18:34:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/41 "2004-04-28T22:14:32Z")
Oh, boo-hoo…I’m getting piled on. What a surprise. First, **gobear** is just an angry little fella. Nothing to get all worked up about folks. He’s like a little puppy who’s been kicked around all his life – I’ve never met anyone so angry, hateful and yes, stupid. I knew the usual suspects would show up to defend him. That doesn’t change the fact that he’s just a widdle copy editor who seems to think he’s something more. Sorry, buddy, but you’re not. Get over it. And second, if you are all right then prove it!! Just show me where the school does not have the right…show me where they are being forced to allow the boy to wear the shirt. If you’re right then I fully expect you to either put up or shut up. Got it? And for **Left Hand’s** sake, I’ll not continue this “debate” here. But please, for the love of God, someone just show me a cite that the school is being overturned… ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/42 "2004-04-28T22:24:59Z")
Oh, and if I “ascribed a motive” to Shodan and his argument, then I apologize. I don’t know your motives for arguing this way, and while I can guess, I shouldn’t. So I’m sorry for that. (And the second sentence of mine you quote should read “I think, giving Shodan the benefit of the doubt, that this (for him) comes down to…” So it’s not contradictory…but it may be “ascribing motive”…so I’ll just retract the whole damn thing.) ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/43 "2004-04-29T01:23:32Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Oh, boo-hoo…I’m getting piled on. What a surprise. > > First, **gobear** is just an angry little fella. Nothing to get all worked up about folks. He’s like a little puppy who’s been kicked around all his life – I’ve never met anyone so angry, hateful and yes, stupid. I knew the usual suspects would show up to defend him. I’m definitely not a “usual suspect” and yet I am here to defend him. If you know past history, you’ll know that he and I have not always seen eye to eye and you’ll know that we’ve gotten really annoyed with each other on occassion. I think he’s a cool guy overall, but yes, he can really PISS ME OFF sometimes, (and I piss him off) and all of that certainly is no secret. So, with all that said, I have to add this: no way is he stupid, no way does he “give gays a bad name.” And as others have mentioned already, what is this “give a bad name” bullshit anyway? We’re all individuals here. As far as I am concerned, you have zero credibility in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/44 "2004-04-29T02:33:40Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Oh, boo-hoo…I’m getting piled on. What a surprise. > > First, **gobear** is just an angry little fella. Nothing to get all worked up about folks. He’s like a little puppy who’s been kicked around all his life – I’ve never met anyone so angry, hateful and yes, stupid. I knew the usual suspects would show up to defend him. That doesn’t change the fact that he’s just a widdle copy editor who seems to think he’s something more. Sorry, buddy, but you’re not. Get over it. dude, I have no clue why you have such a hard-on for me, but I’m not going to have sex with you so stop flirting already. > [@](#): > > And second, if you are all right then prove it!! Just show me where the school does not have the right…show me where they are being forced to allow the boy to wear the shirt. Sinse you are either too lazy or too dim to read the copious cites of legal precedent dealing with school First Amendment cases that have already been given, there isn’t any point in providing you with even more evidence for you to ignore while asking, “Where’s the evidence?” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/45 "2004-04-29T13:46:59Z")
> [@leander](#): > > And for **Left Hand’s** sake, I’ll not continue this “debate” here. But please, for the love of God, someone just show me a cite that the school is being overturned… Go to the other thread, you rude little man, and you’ll see copious evidence depicting why, **if the student decides to fight the case in court** , the student will probably, **eventually** , win. The fact that the courts haven’t overturned the school’s decision within a week of the event is hardly significant. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/46 "2004-04-29T23:30:25Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > dude, I have no clue why you have such a hard-on for me, but I’m not going to have sex with you so stop flirting already. “dude”, I’ve seen a photo of you on that thing you call a website. Sorry, my boy, but you are just way too ugly. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/47 "2004-04-29T23:31:01Z")
> [@leander](#): > > “dude”, I’ve seen a photo of you on that thing you call a website. Sorry, my boy, but you are just way too ugly. Now I know you’re insane. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/48 "2004-04-29T23:58:46Z")
So, let’s see here. On one hand, **gobear** cites numerous legal precedents and outlines clearly and succinctly why they allow the student to wear his t-shirt, and **leander** ’s only response is “You’re ugly and you have a stupid job.” This is like watching Mike Tyson beat up Stephen Hawking. It’s the most one-sided debate in SDMB history that didn’t involve at least one bonafide troll. I mean, it’s hardly news that **leander** is an idiot, but this is pathetic even by his standards. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/49 "2004-04-30T00:24:39Z")
> [@leander](#): > > “dude”, I’ve seen a photo of you on that thing you call a website. Sorry, my boy, but you are just way too ugly. For you, maybe. Pity you weren’t at DaW this past October. Pity **jayjay** wasn’t, either:D [sub]BTW, loved the ad-hominem … if the argument is above you, pretend the poster will never be below you.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/50 "2004-04-30T00:55:10Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Go to the other thread, you rude little man, and you’ll see copious evidence depicting why, **if the student decides to fight the case in court** , the student will probably, **eventually** , win. The fact that the courts haven’t overturned the school’s decision within a week of the event is hardly significant. > > Daniel I think you need to consider the following questions, with regards to _Tinker_: 1. Did the “speech” disrupt, or intend to disrupt, the school or the school’s activities? 2. Was the “speech” hate speech? 3. Did the “speech” violate the rights of other students? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then the school has the right to censor the speech. The Michigan case, which appears to be identical to this case, is actually not. The issue was whether an opposing viewpoint could be aired in a forum intended to celebrate “diversity week.” The judge, rightly so, felt that any censorship of opposing viewpoints was absurdly contradictory to the concept of diversity. This is not the same as a student expressing a viewpoint which is intended to disrupt a school activity. Also, it appears that the girl at Pioneer merely wanted someone from the Catholic Church to offer up their view on homosexuality, on a panel where various folks were meant to offer up opposing viewpoints. This is different than someone going around saying “homosexuality is a sin.” * * * Let me put it another way, which may simplify things for some of you: Let’s say that a school has a point during a day set aside, a “moment of silence” if you will, to recognize the death of 6 million Jews in the Holocaust. Would it be alright if a student wore a t-shirt that read, “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him” (John 5:16-18, KJV). What about a t-shirt that read, “The Holocaust is the big lie.” Would that be alright? Now, going back to the Michigan case, would it still be alright if – during a forum on the death of Jesus – a religious leader put forth the argument that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus? What if – during a forum on the Holocaust – someone wanted to argue that it never happened? Now do you still not see the difference?? (on preview: I’d take Hawking over Tyson anyday… 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/51 "2004-04-30T02:04:48Z")
> [@leander](#): > > First, gobear is just an angry little fella. Nothing to get all worked up about folks. He’s like a little puppy who’s been kicked around all his life – I’ve never met anyone so angry, hateful and yes, stupid. I knew the usual suspects would show up to defend him. That doesn’t change the fact that he’s just a widdle copy editor who seems to think he’s something more. Sorry, buddy, but you’re not. Get over it. > > … > > “dude”, I’ve seen a photo of you on that thing you call a website. Sorry, my boy, but you are just way too ugly. Tragic evidence, ladies and gentlemen, of the ravages of crystal meth in our community. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/52 "2004-04-30T02:08:49Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > For you, maybe. Pity you weren’t at DaW this past October. Pity **jayjay** wasn’t, either:D Yes! Pity me, dammit! I will, however, be at Battlefield: Dope! otherwise known as PADope, in July. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/53 "2004-04-30T12:04:37Z")
Well, it appears that after all this hootin’ and hollerin’ this issue may find a resolution. Apparently, the AFA has taken up the cause. Here are two further articles: [The first](http://www.wataugademocrat.com/topic.php?tid=7&sid=3954) is from the Watauga Democrat newspaper; [the second](http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/4/afa/292004e.asp) is from the AFA. From the AFA (Agapepress): > [@](#): > > A Christian student is asking his Boone, North Carolina, high school to apologize for censoring his opposition to a pro-homosexual event on campus. > > … > > The young believer feels the incident at Watauga is emblematic of the anti-Christian discrimination that is taking place in schools across the U.S. He contends that, all over the country, the God of the Bible has been kicked out of the public schools, and instead “they’ve adopted the religion of secular humanism. That’s pretty much the religion of school systems now, whether they want to admit it or not.” > > Austin says if Watauga High School does not revoke his suspension and acknowledge that it has discriminated against him for expressing his beliefs, he plans on filing a lawsuit to uphold his First Amendment rights. And a few highlights from the newspaper article: > [@](#): > > According to Childers, five other students wore T-shirts in response to the Day of Silence, bearing religious messages that were deemed “offensive” under the school system’s dress code. > > The students were told the shirts bore messages that were interpreted as a violation of the dress code. > > The dress code prohibits the wearing of any clothing or emblems that are “offensive to any race, religion, or gender.” > > … > > Three of the T-shirts deemed in violation bore the message, “God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.” > > One made a reference to lisping, which is often used to stereotype gays, and another stated “Homosexuality is a sin” and other messages made references to Bible verses. > > Childers said he made the determination that the shirts were in violation because of the part of the policy that banned “offensive” messages from clothing, not that they were targeted toward race, religion, or gender. > > … > > Childers said this wasn’t an issue of the school’s choosing sides. He said if students participating in the Day of Silence had worn messages that were deemed offensive under the dress code, then they would also have faced the same penalties and actions. He said any messages deemed derogatory toward Christians would have been handled in the same way So maybe we’ll get our answer after all. If the principal doesn’t back down, and the student can convince these attorneys to go forward, maybe we’ll all get to see our great justice system at work. And then you can all say, “I told you so.” Or not. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/54 "2004-05-02T07:21:00Z")
Found an interesting editorial from the folks at the Watauga Democrat. Apparently, they’ve been getting some letters and e-mails “questioning [their] objectivity”. [WHS protest coverage was fair and accurate](http://www.wataugademocrat.com/topic.php?tid=20&sid=3984) A few highlights: > [@](#): > > After a recent news article about student suspensions at Watauga County High School, we received several letters and e-mails questioning our objectivity. > > … > > In fact, we can agree with some points from both sides. Did the school violate the free speech of the shirt-wearing students? Possibly. > > As a defender of the First Amendment, we would be remiss if we didn’t encourage any American to strongly assert his or her right to free speech, even when doing so may result in negative consequence like a suspension. > > However, it must be noted that students have never enjoyed the same level of free speech in public schools as the everyday citizen. The Supreme Court recognizes that schools may censor students. Should students challenge increasing encroachment on their First Amendment rights? Absolutely. > > Was the language on the T-shirts offensive? That’s not our call. The school leadership decided it was or had the potential to be and, until a higher authority overturns that decision, it stands. When we hire qualified leaders in public positions — like a principal — we expect them to exercise their best judgment when several important principles, like free speech and a need for order, come into conflict. > > Gary Childers was forced to balance his students’ free speech rights against their need to avoid disruptions. We can second guess his decision, but the fact remains, it’s his call. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/55 "2004-05-03T14:13:17Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Found an interesting editorial from the folks at the Watauga Democrat. Apparently, they’ve been getting some letters and e-mails “questioning [their] objectivity”. > > [WHS protest coverage was fair and accurate](http://www.wataugademocrat.com/topic.php?tid=20&sid=3984) This part of the quoted editorial is demonstrably wrong: > [@](#): > > Gary Childers was forced to balance his students’ free speech rights against their need to avoid disruptions. We can second guess his decision, but the fact remains, it’s his call. It seems the writer of the editorial did not read the Tinker decision either. It is the Supreme Court who “makes the call” on how the First Amendment applies, not school administrators. Unless those arguing against the student’s t-shirt would also be willing to submit to a decision by Childers that a National Day of Silence is too disruptive to be allowed, and that he was therefore suspending anyone who took part in it. Under the Tinker decision, unless some demonstrable disruption occurred as a result of a silent protest, it has to be allowed. And no, “He’s disagreeing with me!” does not count as disruption. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/56 "2004-05-04T06:23:56Z")
_Ring-ring Ring-ring_ Assistant: Hello, Justice Souter’s office. May I help you? Principal Childers: Yes, this is Principal Childers. Is the Justice available? A: No, I’m sorry, he’s out jogging at the moment. May I help you? PC: Um, well…we’ve got a student here who’s wearing a t-shirt that we think may cause a disturbance. Also, we find it offensive and derogatory to certain students. What should we do?? A: I’m not sure I understand. Why are you calling us? PC: Well, someone told me we weren’t allowed to make a decision. So we’re calling you. A: What exactly does the t-shirt say? PC: It says that homosexuality is a sin. And that Hell is real. And that Jesus is the answer. A: Um, I’m not sure Souter’s the right Justice for the _job_…maybe you ought to call Scalia…let me see if he’s back from his vacation… PC: Thank you…and don’t forget to shout for joy!! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/57 "2004-05-04T12:39:32Z")
> [@leander](#): > > _Ring-ring Ring-ring_ > > Assistant: Hello, Justice Souter’s office. May I help you? > > Principal Childers: Yes, this is Principal Childers. Is the Justice available? > > A: No, I’m sorry, he’s out jogging at the moment. May I help you? > > PC: Um, well…we’ve got a student here who’s wearing a t-shirt that we think may cause a disturbance. Also, we find it offensive and derogatory to certain students. What should we do?? How about this response? > [@](#): > > A: Read the Tinker decision, you moron. It has been linked to by both **Left Hand of Dorkness** and **gobear** on the SDMB. Or ask any Constitutional lawyer. > > Students have a First Amendment right to express their opinions. You have to demonstrate that allowing them to do so will disrupt the education of the school before you can deny them their rights. And don’t be such an idiot. If you can allow a National Day of Silence for one side, you damn well better allow a t-shirt for the other. Content-based censorship is against the First Amendment, you dork. > > PC: But - but - it’s an _un-PC opinion!_ It’s _thoughtcrime_! > > A: WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK AT A ROLLING DOUGHNUT, YOU DRIVELLING DITZ! READ THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION! > > PC: But we think certain of our students might find it - **offensive**! > > A: _(Reaches thru the phone, seizes Principal Childers by his necktie, and repeatedly slams his head down on the desk.)_ \*\*It _(slam)doesn’t (slam) matter, you half-wit!(slamslamslam)_ \*\*Get a fucking grip on reality - the First Fucking Amendment protects the right of people to hold and express opinions, **EVEN IF YOU FUCKING DISAGREE WITH THEM!** YOU ARE NOT GOD ALMIGHTY! YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY CAN AND CANNOT SAY! That is FUCKING _UN-CONSTITUTIONAL_/ > > PC: _(spluttering)_ But - but - what about the rights of the gay students? > > A: They have the **same** fucking rights, asshat. That’s why you can have a fucking National fucking Day of fucking Silence, you fuckingly fucking fuck-fucker! > > PC: But - but - > > A: Sorry, but you are too stupid to be a principal. Go get a broom and clean up the condoms in the teacher’s lounge. We’ll find someone with a clue to fill in while we hire a new principal. Have a nice day. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/58 "2004-05-04T12:52:06Z")
Cute response, **Shodan**. I do think that, althought the principal made the wrong decision, he didn’t make an egregiously wrong decision. This case is not exactly like any other case we’ve looked at so far, inasmuch as no other political protest (Tinker et al) promised eternal damnation for political opponents. A small-town principal may well not follow Supreme Court decisions closely enough to make the correct spur-of-the-moment decision in a case like this. I hope he’s reversed, but I harbor no resentment against him. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/59 "2004-05-04T13:11:31Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Cute response, **Shodan**. I do think that, althought the principal made the wrong decision, he didn’t make an egregiously wrong decision. This case is not exactly like any other case we’ve looked at so far, inasmuch as no other political protest (Tinker et al) promised eternal damnation for political opponents. A small-town principal may well not follow Supreme Court decisions closely enough to make the correct spur-of-the-moment decision in a case like this. > > I hope he’s reversed, but I harbor no resentment against him. > > Daniel You are probably right, and my response was completely over the top. This is, after all, the Pit. But our freedoms are most safe when all of us are just as upset at the attempted banning of opinions with which we disagree as when we agree. When, for instance, the American Family Institute is just as vehement in protecting some pro-gay message as the ACLU is in protecting this kid’s t-shirt. Which, to your (and **gobear** ’s) credit, you have consistently done in this case. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131/60 "2004-05-04T13:18:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But our freedoms are most safe when all of us are just as upset at the attempted banning of opinions with which we disagree as when we agree. When, for instance, the American Family Institute is just as vehement in protecting some pro-gay message as the ACLU is in protecting this kid’s t-shirt. Yeah, I agree with this. It’s a pretty damn hard thing to do, but I think we gotta do it. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-spectrum/242131.md?page=4)