# Fuck you ! To a Muslim **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 16, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319 "2008-12-16T00:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/21 "2008-12-16T06:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > originally posted by\*\* T Square:\*\* > Because so many Arabs are Muslim, there is a tendency to confuse matters of Arab culture with teachings of Islam (for example, head coverings for women go back much earlier than Islam). This would be a little bit like an alien visiting Italy and concluding that Catholics eat a lot of pasta. Certainly head coverings are not unique to Islam. However, the Koran does tell people to dress modestly. The interpretation of what “modesty” means varies and not all followers of Islam have identical dress codes. But there is a relationship in the modern-day world between Islam and veiling, and yes, the relationship has a religious component as well as cultural aspects. Plenty of non-Arab Moslems veil. Veiling is not exactly analogous to eating pasta, which only has religious connotations for the Church of the FSM. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/22 "2008-12-16T06:41:29Z")
This is probably a dumb question… but do shoe throwers toss the shoes they’re wearing? Because if you were the recipient of a shoe throwing, might you confiscate or throw the show elsewhere? I think the Bush shoe thrower used his own, but if you were going to be a place where things got shirty, might you carry a spare trainer in your pocket? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/23 "2008-12-16T06:48:09Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > The shoe-throwing incident was not comedic to \*this \*Westerner at all. I took it very seriously because even though I am not a Muslim, I understand that the shoe-throwing was meant as a insult. A very serious insult. > > Actually, it is insulting that any Westerner would not take such an insult seriously and it smacks of ethnocentrism, cultural patronization and just a general sense of, “Ha ha ha! Those funny little brown people and their silly little customs! I pray they find Jesus Christ soon!” Please, please forgive my sin . ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/24 "2008-12-16T07:25:02Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > This is probably a dumb question… but do shoe throwers toss the shoes they’re wearing? Because if you were the recipient of a shoe throwing, might you confiscate or throw the show elsewhere? > > I think the Bush shoe thrower used his own, but if you were going to be a place where things got shirty, might you carry a spare trainer in your pocket? IIRC, during the ‘shoeing’ of Saddam Hussein’s statue, they’d take their shoe off, beat the statue repeatedly with said shoes grasped tightly in hand, and retain the shoe while making room for the next person. I suppose in this case, the shoe-er was prepared to lose his shoe to make his point. Our local newscaster explained the symbolism as a statement that the victim was ‘as low as the dirt beneath my shoes’. But he said it as though it was really “Hey you, camel shit!” ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/25 "2008-12-16T07:27:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No they don’t. Their version of the finger is … throwing the classic thumbs up sign, which to them means “up yours”. Well, I knew _that_, but as he was veing taken back to his cell, this dude definitely had the middle 2 digits of both hands extended upward. I stand corrected on the “universal bird” statement, thank you! 🙂 Q ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/26 "2008-12-16T07:36:53Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > They **do** shoot people “the bird” which means “fuck you” universally, right? > > Saw that recently on CNN while in Germany. Had the sound turned down, but it was a young terrorist who had been found guilty, and, as he was being taken out of the courtroom, he double-birdied the news cam. Two fingers? That’s a British gesture. What was the story/background of the guy in question? That would most likely explain it better than simply ‘he was one of them’. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/27 "2008-12-16T07:50:50Z")
Damn, I’m sorry **Gorillaman** , it was just one middle digit on each hand, held in front of his body as he was led away, not **two** …:smack: Sorry, I cannot be more specific as to his dastardly deed, but it happened in Germany and he had help. As I said, I had the sound muted… Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/28 "2008-12-16T08:42:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No they don’t. Their version of the finger is … throwing the classic thumbs up sign, which to them means “up yours”. Obviously, some miscommunication happened when they greeted the US liberators with rows of thumbs up 😉 > > The bird is certainly not universal, either. Google “Hawaian Good Luck Sign” if you want a cheap laugh. I thought the German version was tapping your noggin with your index finger, as to point out “Du hast einen vogel.” (Or, basically, bird brain). I’m not doubting you I just don’t remember that specific gesture meaning that when learning this stuff in German, I always thought that one was Russian for some reason. In other news, if you’re in an Arab country and they start burning a US flag then a bunch of passerby see the flames and run up to beat out the flame with their shoes is that a compliment or a double-insult? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/29 "2008-12-16T08:55:14Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I thought the German version was tapping your noggin with your index finger, as to point out “Du hast einen vogel.” (Or, basically, bird brain). Naw, Meng!;)🙂 This guy wasn’t **German** , he was a terrorist being tried in the German legal system and he was using only the middle finger of each hand while clenching all the other fingers into a fist . A \*\* nn!nn \*\* kinda thing. And when I say “he shot him the bird”, then that’s what he did: He clenched his fist and stuck up that middle finger which makes the whole hand now look like a scrotal sac complete with erect penis and stuff (maybe a little smegma - that cheesy smelling substance which sometimes may be found under the foreskin of the male - in women, that cheesy substance is known as “vulveeta”, I think). I digressed a bit there, didn’t I, y’all? :rolleyes: Well, I **had** to explain that shootin’ somebody a bird wadn’t the same as actually calling them cuckoo, didn’t I? 🙂 Q ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/30 "2008-12-16T08:59:52Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > Naw, Meng!;)🙂 > > This guy wasn’t **German** , he was a terrorist being tried in the German legal system and he was using only the middle finger of each hand while clenching all the other fingers into a fist . > > A \*\* nn!nn \*\* kinda thing. > > And when I say “he shot him the bird”, then that’s what he did: He clenched his fist and stuck up that middle finger which makes the whole hand now look like a scrotal sac complete with erect penis and stuff (maybe a little smegma - that cheesy smelling substance which sometimes may be found under the foreskin of the male - in women, that cheesy substance is known as “vulveeta”, I think). > > I digressed a bit there, didn’t I, y’all? :rolleyes: > > Well, I **had** to explain that shootin’ somebody a bird wadn’t the same as actually calling them cuckoo, didn’t I? > > 🙂 > > Q I believe you\*, I was responding to Kobal’s assertion that the “thumbs up” was “the German middle finger.” (Assuming I read his post correctly even) \*Besides it’s not like the Germans are foreign to that gesture, it may have missed a lot of people 20-30 years ago, but from what I’ve heard pretty much everyone there gets what it means by now… probably via the channel of us and our media teaching it to them. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/31 "2008-12-16T09:12:57Z")
Oh. Sorry, of _course_ you were! Ahhh yes. The SDMB as seen through the “eyes” of early onset dementia. 😃 I do beg your pardon, **jragon**. Q ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/32 "2008-12-16T12:12:35Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Soooo…would a variant of “shoe fucker” be the worst of the worst, then? Err no. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/33 "2008-12-16T12:17:54Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I had considered that issue, however I did catch a blurb on the TV during a report on the incident explaining how shoes were unclean in Islam, requiring their removal before entering a mosque. A religous take on a shoe’s “character” sure adds weight to the insult. > > I’d be interested to find out however if the practice of insulting with shoes is limited Arabs or not. 1. 99% of “facts” about Islam are pulled out of thin air. Shoes are not unclean, 2. Lets say some guy took his shoe off and threw it at you. Would you find that insulting? ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/34 "2008-12-16T12:47:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > 1. 99% of “facts” about Islam are pulled out of thin air. Shoes are not unclean, 83% of statistics are just made up. > [@AK84](#): > > 1. Lets say some guy took his shoe off and threw it at you. Would you find that insulting? No, I wouldn’t. I’d find it weird and silly. But for some reason, I should be gravely insulted, because this is serious business, or something. It seems to me we have documented cases of shoe insults in the Arab world. We also have shoe insults in Southeast Asia. Some Arabs are Muslim. Some Southest Asians are Muslim. I’m not sure what correlation, if any, is present. I am sure that the idea of a grown man throwing a shoe is funny to me. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/35 "2008-12-16T13:49:01Z")
As Sean Connery would say, “Hey look, it’s Shoe-perman!”. \< runs from thread \> ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/36 "2008-12-16T14:24:30Z")
> [@T\_SQUARE](#): > > 83% of statistics are just made up. > > No, I wouldn’t. I’d find it weird and silly. But for some reason, I should be gravely insulted, because this is serious business, or something. > > It seems to me we have documented cases of shoe insults in the Arab world. We also have shoe insults in Southeast Asia. Some Arabs are Muslim. Some Southest Asians are Muslim. I’m not sure what correlation, if any, is present. I am sure that the idea of a grown man throwing a shoe is funny to me. We have documented cases of people telling knock knock jokes in Europe and N America. Most people there are at least nominally Christian, is there is correlation between the jokes and Christianity? You missed the point, its not that a shoe was thrown, its that a missile was thrown at someone that is the point. And secondly it may seem funny to you sitting at a computer, not funny when it actually happens. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/37 "2008-12-16T15:06:26Z")
There was an incident in Austraila where Dubya gave the V-finger sign with the palm in. That’s the Aussie equivalent of the middle finger. When in Oz, it’s palm out, people. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/38 "2008-12-16T16:48:41Z")
So is there some sort of hierarchy in shoe insults? Is it more offensive to throw a pair of flip flops at your enemy then for example winged flying boots that lace up to the crutch? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/39 "2008-12-16T17:42:38Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I believe you\*, I was responding to Kobal’s assertion that the “thumbs up” was “the German middle finger.” (Assuming I read his post correctly even) > > \*Besides it’s not like the Germans are foreign to that gesture, it may have missed a lot of people 20-30 years ago, but from what I’ve heard pretty much everyone there gets what it means by now… probably via the channel of us and our media teaching it to them. To clear that part up: 1. showing the “thumb-up” gesture does not mean “ok” but “up yours” in Middle Eastern cultures i.e. Iraq 2. the guy on German television apparently (from the way I understand the post) showed the middle finger with his right and left hand (both hands), which means “fuck you” in Germany as well as the US and most of Europe. It’s not that Germans didn’t know this 20 years ago, it wasn’t done publically because it’s very offensive. In German, it’s called showing the stinky finger, but not called flipping the bird. 3. In Germany, pointing to your temple with your forefinger means “You are crazy” and that gesture is called “showing the bird” (Den Vogel zeigen) in German. It’s considered less offensive than the “fuck you” gesture, but still an insult (esp. when done while driving, or to police men). As for the shoes - I think it’s closer to spitting on somebody, both because it’s physicall, and because it shows the so much disgust with the person. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319/40 "2008-12-16T18:22:38Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > You missed the point, its not that a shoe was thrown, its that a missile was thrown at someone that is the point. And secondly it may seem funny to you sitting at a computer, not funny when it actually happens. Dead wrong, you are. Arab culture generally despises the sole of the feet and the things that cover them. If the object was to throw something at Bush then something more useful (like a rock) and less expensive to the assailant would have been used. Add also that the shoe is the interface between the sole of the foot and “zift” (literally, “asphalt” but also recalls general discontent, shit, disgust at the crap that gets all over the bottoms of your shoes) and the shoe becomes the perfect message for combining frustration, inconvenience, disgust and filth. Plus, yeh. It would have been sweet if he’d manage to dot the POTUS’ eye in the process. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuck-you-to-a-muslim/477319.md?page=3)