# Fucking appalling Church acting totally against God **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111 "2004-08-16T18:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/61 "2004-08-17T12:58:10Z")
OHMYGOD. I can’t even believe we’re having this conversation. They can think in the abstract so as to believe that there’s an all-powerful being that knows their thoughts and can control their destiny, yet they can’t figure that the host is merely a prop for the ritual? The mind boggles… ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/62 "2004-08-17T13:00:35Z")
I like this aspect of it: "last month, the diocese told the priest that Waldman’s sacrament would not be validated \*\*by the church \*\* because of the substitute wafer. " Funny, I always thought that the sacrament was validated by **God** , not the church. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/63 "2004-08-17T13:40:03Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > The bread turns into the actual body of Christ, and thus is wheat-free? The first part of the statement is Church doctrine. The second part of the statement was just a smart-aleck remark made on a message board. Of course it still is wheat/grape wine, molecularly speaking. Otherwise why would the Church make low-gluten wafers and low-alcohol grapemust available. _“Transubstantiation”_ means the “Forms” (flatbread and wine) become themselves a real part of the body and blood of Christ (which after the Resurrection and Ascencion, have acquired a transcendent form of existence so they are not necessarily protein) though the Forms still retain their molecular characteristics as processed vegetable matter. Other major churches (various branches of the Lutheran and Anglican Communions) hold to _consubstantiation_, wherein the real presence of the body and blood of Christ is _contained together with_ the wafer/wine. The looser Protestantisms go for merely “symbolic” communion. ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/64 "2004-08-17T14:44:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Gluten can trigger violent reactions in people suffering from Celiac-Sprue disease. This was probably never a problem until recently, because people who could not eat (gluten-laced) wheat probably just died long before they received their First Communion. (First Communion did not take place until the early teens prior to the 20th century and victims of Celiac-Sprue, like victims of childhood onset diabetes, probably did not live long enough to have a problem.) I doubt that. I knew a woman in college who had been only recently diagnosed with celiac disease. She’d been sick all her life, but the family dr hadn’t found anything and concluded there was nothing really wrong with her. She’d have made her First Communion, and several more besides if she’d lived in previous centuries and never been diagnosed. I suspect that rather than celiacs not surviving to be a problem, they just were “sickly” with no discernable cause, and since the connection between wheat and their condition hadn’t been made the issue just wouldn’t have come up. Heck, it wouldn’t surprise me if they ended up taking communion rather more often than the average parishoner. And considering we’re talking one wheat wafer in what was probably a diet already filled with gluten from other sources, I don’t imagine taking communion would have been a very big percentage of their problem. (Yeah, it’s a nitpick, I know. It’s not like celiacs were going to live too much longer than that, but still. Even if celiacs were living into their eighties, no one would have pinpointed it as a problem since no one knew wheat was the problem to begin with–they would just have been “sick.”) The wheat-only host is old news to me, and not only because the woman I mentioned was Catholic and talked about not being able to take the host after she was diagnosed. I was raised Catholic myself, and knew the host was wheat, and the wine only grape wine. They told us that in Catholic grade school. You could have missed it if you weren’t listening, I suppose, but it’s not like the Church hides it or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/65 "2004-08-17T15:18:27Z")
Just for the record, the Lutherans and Anglicans do not “subscribe to consubstantiation” as **JRDelirious** commented – while not totally inaccurate, it’s a description of the way in which many Lutherans and Anglicans interpret their doctrine. Rather, along with the Orthodox, we hold to the doctrine of the Real Presence – claiming it as a Holy Mystery, and neither affirming nor rejecting the Aquinian theory of transubstantiation, which is a Catholic dogma. All that to one side, I’ve been reading a lot on this in a Catholic forum I find intriguing and knowledgeable. First, deglutinated wafers are available – though whether they conform to Catholic prescriptions on what constitutes a valid Communion wafer, is something I’m not sure about. But second, according to knowledgeable Catholics (including a Catholic woman with a degree in theology and liturgical practice), any Catholic who cannot receive the Host for medical reasons may be communed, by consent of the Bishop or by any priest in case of urgent medical necessity (as in _viaticum_ Communion as part of last rites) from the cup only. Either this family or this particular parish is making an issue out of this where none really exists in Catholic practice. ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/66 "2004-08-17T15:29:19Z")
**Polycarp** , check out post #48 above. The mother was offered the option having here daughter commune from the cup, but refused. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/67 "2004-08-17T18:39:58Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > You know, this is something my father-a Roman Catholic-swears by. He’s typically, or rather _occasionally_ a skeptical person, on most matters except this one. > > Personally, it’s always baffled me. I mean, if this were true, then for 2,000 years _a lot of people have been eat’n and drink’n Christ_, right? > > Well, the obvious question is exactly how BIG was Christ? Did he have a weight problem? > > Some one mentioned a low calorie Christ… which has got me wondering…Does the lower calorie Christ taste the same as the full calorie Christ? I’m sure it tastes great, but is it truly less filling? Maybe he’s made of liquid metal? One problem with the wine is that, well at least at my church, there always seemed to be broken pieces of the wafer floating in it. And for a long time, they didn’t even have the chalice available to most of the parishioners. Not to mention the fact that I never liked drinking out of a common cup. A LOT of colds get spread that way? Still, you’d think that well, since he’s GOD and all, couldn’t Jesus turn a hamburger bun and some grape koolaid into his body and blood if he wanted to? I mean, he’s supposed to be all powerful. What’s to stop him from declaring an M&M a piece of the Body? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/68 "2004-08-18T03:42:15Z")
Whats to stop Him? Church rules, which is really just legalism. There is only one “church”, but many different religions some with lots of “rules” which are IMHO just legalism. God must be shaking His head. Our non-denom uses bread pieces and Juicy Juice. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/69 "2004-08-18T04:08:51Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > Good. Should be the first step for this kid realizing that religion is an empty, totalitarian farce that uses ritual and dogma to distract people as it enslaves them. Oh, come on. Tell us how you really feel. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/70 "2004-08-19T13:22:02Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Of course it still is wheat/grape wine, molecularly speaking. Otherwise why would the Church make low-gluten wafers and low-alcohol grapemust available. “Transubstantiation” means the “Forms” (flatbread and wine) become themselves a real part of the body and blood of Christ (which after the Resurrection and Ascencion, have acquired a transcendent form of existence so they are not necessarily protein) though the Forms still retain their molecular characteristics as processed vegetable matter. Yep, the RCC (and Christianity in general) is based to a significant extent on Platonism. It’s hokey, frippy nonsense! But it sure sounds impressive. Anyway, JRD, thank you for explaining to this happily ex-Catholic boy the obscure and asinine rationalization for the RCC’s furiously rigorous pretense that a sliver of bread is _really_ the actual “body” of post-ascension Jesus (who was almost certainly fictional anyway). But consider at that word “transcendent”. That which is transcendent cannot be experienced by mortals, by definition. Within our temporal sphere, a piece of bread which is a transcendent piece of flesh is nothing but a piece of bread. It would seem to me that in order for the wafer to actually be the body of Christ, the recipient would have to be in Heaven, where it is said (quite foolishly) that the transcendent can actually be experienced. But ya’ know what? I don’t really give a shit. The only way I could be happier than being an ex-Catholic would be to be an ex-Mormon (with “ex” being the operative element). Religion makes as little sense as the Bible, and is as well justified as our friend **lekatt’s** belief systems. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/71 "2004-08-19T23:45:24Z")
> [@](#): > > But ya’ know what? I don’t really give a shit. You sure used a lot of words (in a thread to which you were not compelled to post) to tell us you didn’t care. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/72 "2004-08-20T00:30:37Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > I do. I see that the Church is putting imitation above the spiritual needs of its congregants. > The meat of any ritual is its _meaning_, not the trappings. I don’t see how, _especially_ considering the doctrine of transubstantiation, rye hosts are any less likely to become the body of Christ than wheat hosts. Communion with God is (supposed to be) a force powerful enough to rise above material concerns, and I think it’s sinful of the Church to be so fixated on aping The Last Supper. > The spiritual aspect should take precendece over the secular and ephemeral trappings. You’ll never get to be Pope with an attitude like that, **kfl**. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/73 "2004-08-20T01:07:37Z")
There was a thread a few weeks back in GQ about Catholics and prescribed birth control. The question was along the lines of “if a woman has to take The Pill for medical reasons outside of not getting pregnant, will the RCC allow it?” Pretty sure the answer was “yes”. So does this stuff about the girl not being able to take the body for medical reasons have anything to do with this other “medical exception”? Like “thy shalt only have eucharist made of wheat, unless thy is allergic to wheat, then thy may have any other flat styrofoam thingy that a priest has blest”? ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/74 "2004-08-20T01:13:59Z")
Originally quoted by **Captain Amazing** : “. . . confection of the Sacrament . . .” Mmmmmm . . . sacremental confection . . . ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/75 "2004-08-20T01:39:27Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > There was a thread a few weeks back in GQ about Catholics and prescribed birth control. The question was along the lines of “if a woman has to take The Pill for medical reasons outside of not getting pregnant, will the RCC allow it?” > > Pretty sure the answer was “yes”. > > So does this stuff about the girl not being able to take the body for medical reasons have anything to do with this other “medical exception”? Like “thy shalt only have eucharist made of wheat, unless thy is allergic to wheat, then thy may have any other flat styrofoam thingy that a priest has blest”? In the Pill thread, the implication was that there was a medical necessity which the Pill, and only the Pill, solved. If there were a non-contraceptive way of dealing with the medical condition, then taking the Pill takes on a whole new light. Here, there is no necessity: the girl can fully participate in communion with the wine. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/76 "2004-08-20T02:32:29Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Whats to stop Him? > Church rules, which is really just legalism. > There is only one “church”, but many different religions some with lots of “rules” which are IMHO just legalism. > God must be shaking His head. > > Our non-denom uses bread pieces and Juicy Juice. Just curious…would you regard Jewish dietary laws as equally silly…that God would “shake his head” at? Kinda makes Jesus quite the idiot then, for following said laws, don’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/77 "2004-08-20T02:50:09Z")
If not eating the wafer makes the girl’s first communion invalid, how does that square with the idea that her medical condition was caused by God in the first place? What is God supposed to be saying? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/78 "2004-08-20T04:13:01Z")
God was unavailable for comment. Beeg-those who call themselves christians, who believe Jesus was the messaih, realize the New testamnet said all things are clean, as to “laws.” This doesn’t include observant Jews, obviously. since I’ve never used this before- ;j ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/79 "2004-08-20T04:17:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Still, you’d think that well, since he’s GOD and all, couldn’t Jesus turn a hamburger bun and some grape koolaid into his body and blood if he wanted to? I mean, he’s supposed to be all powerful. What’s to stop him from declaring an M&M a piece of the Body? > 😉 You mean besides the fact that they keep falling through the holes in his hands? 😉 > [@Valgard](#): > > If not eating the wafer makes the girl’s first communion invalid, how does that square with the idea that her medical condition was caused by God in the first place? What is God supposed to be saying? Well, given that he planted a tree in the Garden of Eden, then told Adam and Eve not to eat it’s fruit, I’d say, “Fuck you.” But I could be wrong. God doesn’t talk to me very much anymore since the doctor put me on anti-depressants, and before he was just saying things like, “Kill yourself” or “Kill that asshole over there” so I doubt that if he and I were still on speaking terms that I’d be able to get a straight answer out of him. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111/80 "2004-08-20T05:14:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Just curious…would you regard Jewish dietary laws as equally silly…that God would “shake his head” at? > > Kinda makes Jesus quite the idiot then, for following said laws, don’t it? Didn’t he get in trouble for working on the Sabbath and such? I mean, just to pick the nit; I’m a secular humanist myself. Just the years of Presbyterian Sunday School talking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-appalling-church-acting-totally-against-god/260111.md?page=5)