# Fucking bitch **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2008, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900 "2008-05-11T07:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/161 "2008-05-12T14:52:38Z")
Too late to edit, but when I say “Americans are…”, I clearly mean on average rather than in the universal specific. Many individuals aren’t, I know (self obviously included). Feel free to assume as many more such precautionary qualifications as necessary to prevent rage. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/162 "2008-05-12T14:56:29Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] Being a UK-resident American, on a summer vacation job in Texas I was required as a condition of employment to recite the Pledge standing in front of a desktop flag with my hand on the bible (which seemed excessive). With my prodigiously English accent it was quite the spectacle in the HR office. There was much surreptitious giggling. [/QUOTE] Lone nuts [QUOTE=Dead Badger] From many foreign perspectives, category 3 on its own is eyebrow-raising enough. As far as the Pledge goes, the “under God” stories are just generally the most easily linkable ones because no-one who wants to continue in journalism writes a story entitled, “children forced to recite pledge for 47,000th consecutive schoolday.” [/QUOTE] This discussion also seems to ignore the fact that even third graders (and the teachers of such) are not terribly concerned with the Pledge. It continues on in the way it is now purely out of inertia, nothing more. By third grade, everyone is just mumbling the pledge along with the teacher anyway. [QUOTE=Dead Badger] Americans _are_, by western standards, unusually preoccupied with expressions of national loyalty, be it flags or pledges or lapel badges or whatever. This isn’t to say that you’re unhealthily preoccupied or anything, merely more so than most. There just doesn’t seem much point in disputing this, to me; for crying out loud, the fact that Obama stopped wearing the flag lapel pin is considered [news by some](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299439,00.html). Personally I wouldn’t call the Pledge an “obsession”; more of a weird pecadillo that (as you say) for certain lone nuts assumes disproportionate importance. [/QUOTE] More lone nuts looking to create a news story where there is none or trying to discredit Obama for political gain. You’ll notice how it was laughed off and didn’t work right? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/163 "2008-05-12T15:21:03Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] Lone nuts [/quote] The US government, in point of fact. In any case, I offered it more as an anecdote that amused me than to make any point - the very fact that everyone in the office found it so funny indicates it’s hardly a regular occurrence. My US-resident fellow students were not required to pledge. > [@](#): > > This discussion also seems to ignore the fact that even third graders (and the teachers of such) are not terribly concerned with the Pledge. It continues on in the way it is now purely out of inertia, nothing more. By third grade, everyone is just mumbling the pledge along with the teacher anyway. Not in dispute, but it’s still odd _from a foreign perspective_. The fact that anyone at all says it on a regular basis is weird to us. Recent proposals over here for a pledge to the Queen were met with snorts of derision; it’s just something we find strange, is all, and something which is undeniably different about the States. > [@](#): > > More lone nuts looking to create a news story where there is none or trying to discredit Obama for political gain. You’ll notice how it was laughed off and didn’t work right? Again, no (well, little) argument here but the very fact it was brought up at all is odd _from a foreign perspective_. Which, if you recall, is exactly what the OP was asked for by his friends. Not an objective value judgement or an essay on the realities of nationalistic fervour among suburban Americans - just his perspective. “Patriotism” is a noun which hardly ever crops up in political stories over here, and it’s not ground over which politicians compete - indeed, someone loudly trumpeting such values would be viewed somewhat askance (most likely because they’d be a nut from a party like [UKIP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Independence_Party)). And you must equally agree that there are no doubt some who _will_ take barbs at Obama’s patriotism seriously. More than can be written off as lone nuts, too. I’m sure that, much like air conditioning noise, all this stuff largely fades into the background for most Americans and anyone who spends a long time living there. That doesn’t change the fact that the OP was asked by his friends for his perspectives as a foreigner on living in America, and that the general prevalence of overt patriotism there is one of those things which, for many foreigners, is most noticeable on arrival. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/164 "2008-05-12T16:01:02Z")
Flag waving and nationalism make me _uncomfortable_. Well, not really. Mostly I’m just an effete, pompous shitbird who pretends to be sophisticatedly bewlidered by vulgar colonial behaviors. I even use the word “uncomfortable” so that my audience can associate me with being a victim. See, if I outright refer to American cultural behaviors as wrong, it makes me look like the intolerant tourist that I am. But when I say that nationalism makes me _uncomfortable_, I’m suddenly a victim of your boorishness and my own delicate sensibilities. It’s just how I keeps it real in the drinking establishments of America. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/165 "2008-05-12T16:07:37Z")
[QUOTE=Grossbottom] But when I say that nationalism makes me _uncomfortable_, I’m suddenly a victim of your boorishness and my own delicate sensibilities. [/QUOTE] You only become a victim when a person sticks their nose into your conversation. A person that seems to take a mild slight at best and turn in into a major deal. But then again she was a lone nut. There’s no other evidence of people taking the OP’s statements as something a lot stronger than it was and becoming very defensive about it. No… no evidence at all. For fuck sake. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/166 "2008-05-12T16:35:15Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > Well, not really. Mostly I’m just an effete, pompous shitbird who pretends to be sophisticatedly bewlidered by vulgar colonial behaviors. Whereas, of course, your response to a mild opinion is robust and manly, and not at all an overreaction. Several Americans in this thread have attested to the fact that it makes them “uncomfortable”, too\*. Are they also “effete, pompous shitbird[s]”? Can nobody genuinely be just “uncomfortable” with something; must there really be something more sinister going on? You’re doing an awful lot of projecting. As I said, Britons tend to get awkward around expressions of British patriotism (maybe it’s because our anthem is such an atrocious dirge), so you really shouldn’t feel singled out or belittled. Unless you want to, that is. \*I’m among them, but unfortunately I own and occasionally wear a velvet jacket so am going to be unable to defend myself on charges of effeteness, m’lud. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/167 "2008-05-12T16:57:24Z")
[QUOTE=Fuji] Yes, but that’s the main post office in the capital and largest city (by far) in the country. It still doesn’t invalidate my observation that the post office in my town (or the next town over) in County Cork doesn’t display one. They also sell lottery tickets inside and allow local merchants to advertise their wares, both of which are verboten in the States. Post offices here are quite dissimilar to their U.S. counterparts in many ways, one of which is infrequent usage of the national flag. (Whaddaya expect from a country that doesn’t even have zip/postal codes!)Personally, I can’t recall _ever_ going to a U.S. post office where Old Glory was not proudly on display. I’m pretty sure the local police station also doesn’t display the flag - I’ll doublecheck on my way home tonight. I also don’t ever recall seeing a U.S. police station (not including substations) that didn’t show the flag. [/QUOTE] Yes but in your post you called someone a cretin for showing you pictures of a flag even though you know what that flag looks like. They were showing you a picture of a \*specific \* flag and place which you seem to have missed. I’m sure you are 100% correct about everything else. The only time I was in Ireland was 20 years ago. I wasn’t looking for flags. Although I seem to recall quite a few. But that might have been because I was marching in the Dublin St Patricks Day parade. I’m sure there are more Irish flags in America than in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/168 "2008-05-12T17:19:12Z")
It looks like there are hundreds of pictures on the page posted. One of them shows the GPO and it’s not at the top. I think he can be forgiven making a mistake about the intention of the link. Yeah you may see a bit of Green White and Orange on Paddy’s Day 😉 [http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/images/2008/0317/image\_200275\_1.jpg](http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/images/2008/0317/image_200275_1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/169 "2008-05-12T17:46:02Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Watch a little documentary called _Triumph of the Will_, it might enlighten you… [/QUOTE] George Bush jokes aside, we’re not a bunch of funking Nazis. Marc ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/170 "2008-05-12T17:47:06Z")
When I lived away from the US for several years and returned, I, too, found all the flags a bit weird and disconcerting. Perhaps even uncomfortable. One of the reasons is that I had gotten used to equating the more egregious flag-wavers with ardent right-wing nationalism and outright xenophobia in the countries I visited. Most people I met had some pride in their national identity, but most were not keen on outward displays of national identity like flags, pins, and the such, except for, possibly, on national holidays. The people who did tend to outwardly display their national identity with such markers are those who felt their national identity being threatened. At least this is the sense I got, as gross of an oversimplification as it may be. Here, in the US, it doesn’t seem to have quite the same connotations. You may find some overlap, but I think there is a lot more casual flag-waving here. But I can see how it makes people uncomfortable. Hell, I find it weird, too. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/171 "2008-05-12T17:50:55Z")
[QUOTE=Risha] I’m just stunned by the number of people who seem to think that flags in front of private residences are rare. You’re tuning them out, being deliberately disingenuous, or live in really bizarre areas. I think that it’s considerably less than 1/10th, at least around here, but every residential street is guaranteed to have at least one every few blocks. [/quote] One every few blocks is hardly common. Marc ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/172 "2008-05-12T17:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] George Bush jokes aside, we’re not a bunch of funking Nazis. [/QUOTE] I was replying as to why a European might see a bit of over-enthusiastic flag-waving as not _totally_ harmless. I was thinking specifically of the flag-blessing ceremony in _TotW_. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/173 "2008-05-12T17:54:24Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] One every few blocks is hardly common. [/QUOTE] It is compared to other countries I have visited. I really think this is a major difference between the US and Europe. I don’t think it is a bad thing necessarily - hell, as I said I fly one. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/174 "2008-05-12T17:55:24Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] One every few blocks is hardly common. Marc [/QUOTE] Dude. One every few blocks (which is a conservative estimate) is one more than you’ll see per block in any residential or commercial area in Europe (except in Denmark). That makes it a lot. Not a lot in absolute terms, but a lot in relative terms. Stop being so fucking dense. ---
**Author:** ![InLucemEdita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7ab992/32.png) [@InLucemEdita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InLucemEdita)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/175 "2008-05-12T17:55:55Z")
[QUOTE=BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed] Sorry, exactly how is “limey” anything not being racist? It’s exactly the same as Jap, Paki, or any number of epithets people use against people from a particular country. Just because England happens to be largely white doesn’t mean that it’s not racist. [/QUOTE] It is not racist because there is a difference between race, ethnicity, and country of origin. “Limey” is a mild term describing the country of origin, sometimes derogatory, sometimes simply a nickname (check wikipedia for both uses) on a par with “Yank” for Americans. Neither has anything to do with race. And neither has anything to do with ethnic origin; you can be a “Yank” or a “Limey” with many different ethnic or racial backgrounds. So, nothing to do with race makes it NOT racist, by definition. Got it? Other terms for country of origin are considered to be more offensive, and I think context has a lot to do with it. It is my understanding that “Jap” is considered more offensive both because Japanese refers to both a country and a distinct ethnicity, and moreso because the word “Jap” was used in the context of imprisoning innocent Japanese Americans during WWII. “Limey” and “Yank” have no similar context that I am aware of. “Jap” is still not racist though…unless you consider Japanese to be a race…I think it is an ethnicity with the Asian race, but I’m sure there are those who know more about this distinction than I. I’ve never heard anyone called a “Paki” so I don’t know it’s level of offensiveness to those of Pakistani origin. I don’t know why someone would be offended by a nickname that simply describes their country of origin, unless that term has been used in some other negative context. Frankly, I come from a place where me and my Mick Granpa, and my Dago Girlfriend, and my Canuck friends are all proud enough of our origins and secure enough in our natures to accept nicknames without offense. And we certainly wouldn’t cheapen the concept of racism by applying it where it is totally unwarranted. And we would all think you are a fucking idiot no matter what you called yourself. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/176 "2008-05-12T18:00:40Z")
I should add that South Africans are a leeetle bit mad for our new flag as well - you find it in a lot of places. Here, I think it ties into post-apartheid nation building. Hell, _I_ own a beaded flag lapel pin, and I’m as unpatriotic as they come. Except for the odd sport match. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/177 "2008-05-12T18:02:12Z")
[QUOTE=Loach] Yes but in your post you called someone a cretin for showing you pictures of a flag even though you know what that flag looks like. They were showing you a picture of a \*specific \* flag and place which you seem to have missed. I’m sure you are 100% correct about everything else. The only time I was in Ireland was 20 years ago. I wasn’t looking for flags. Although I seem to recall quite a few. But that might have been because I was marching in the Dublin St Patricks Day parade. I’m sure there are more Irish flags in America than in Ireland. [/QUOTE] You’re correct - I did miss that the first time. But **Carol Stream** ’s assertion appeared to me to conisist basically of: “Here’s a pic of an Irish PO with an Irish flag. Therefore, you’re full of shit when you say Irish PO’s don’t show Irish flags.” As if one highly atypical example (kindly confirmed by **yojimbo** ) would serve to refute my direct, ongoing observations. Hence my labelling of **CS** as a cretin. I still stand by that remark. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/178 "2008-05-12T18:02:30Z")
Speaking as an “inpat”, the flag thing doesn’t make me uncomfortable at all. I think it’s weird, but not scary (which is pretty much the sentiment expressed in the OP). The Pledge, on the other hand, was certainly scary, at least when I was in school. It put me in mind of nothing so much as Chinese kids reciting the words of Mao Tsedong in old newsreels. I see any sort of ceremony which aims to indoctinate kids into believing in the benevolence and wonderfulness of the State as rather authoritarian. Once I’d been here long enough to realize that nobody takes it seriously, and that most people never have to say it once they’re out of school, it seemed much more benign. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/179 "2008-05-12T18:11:41Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Cry me a fucking river. Maybe she was drunk and disorderly but she had a point regarding politeness - don’t criticize a place you’re visiting. Be it someone’s home, another state, or another country, it’s rude. [/QUOTE] Let’s see - she’s been here _an entire year_ and people who are her _friends_ asked for (presumably) her _honest opinion_ about her experience here… and what, you want her to LIE about what she doesn’t like? You know, I have at times asked foreigners their opinions of my country. When I do so I want their HONEST OPINION and not some fucking pleasant lie. I want the TRUTH. If I did not want a truthful answer I would not have asked the question. But I guess you’re more interested in feeling good than actual honesty. I’ll keep that in mind - if I ask you a direct question I can’t trust you to answer truthfully, since keeping up appearances is apparently more important to you than honesty. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900/180 "2008-05-12T18:13:58Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] I should add that South Africans are a leeetle bit mad for our new flag as well - you find it in a lot of places. Here, I think it ties into post-apartheid nation building. Hell, _I_ own a beaded flag lapel pin, and I’m as unpatriotic as they come. Except for the odd sport match. [/QUOTE] Well, yeah. But that’s 'cause you guys have a cool flag, with a little flair in its design and colors. It’s not just another flag with 3 stripes, like half of Europe and Latin America. I mean, really - as demonstrated by Jared Leto’s character in the movie _Lord of War_, all you have to do to make a Dutch flag is rotate a French flag 90 degrees. Pretty lame… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-bitch/448900.md?page=10)