# "Fucking Christians" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773 "2002-11-07T21:15:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/61 "2002-11-08T17:54:31Z")
Gobear I refuse to tolerate gay bashing (including verbal) to any degree whatsoever in my presence. I am offended by it. I might be crazy for that, but it’s not a conscious decision. I am simply offended by it. I’m not offended because gays are a minority. I’m offended because I know that there are wonderful people who are gay. There are some people who have declared themselves Christian so that they could be a part of the majority behemouth and get the political clout that goes along with it. On the other hand, there are Christians who believe their faith is a gift from God, who tolerate without condescension or judgment people of other faiths, and who feel empathy for their gay brothers and sisters. Even if I weren’t a Christian, I wouldn’t want you giving me any slack just because I’m a racial minority. I want to be judged by you as an individual. If you dislike me for who I am, I can live with that. But if you dislike me because I am part of a group that you dislike, I’ve seen that before. And it stinks. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/62 "2002-11-08T17:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Just because you haven’t given up your faith and have no immediate plans to do so doesn’t make it impossible to do so. But there are also people who have claimed to have given up their homosexuality, too. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/63 "2002-11-08T18:15:31Z")
All we’re saying **gobear** is it’s not right to generalize and judge an entire group of people based on the actions of SOME. Got that? As for Christianity being largely evil, well, I disagree. It gave us St. Francis of Assisi, Archbishop Oscar Romero, Gregor Mendel, Martin Luther King Jr, Bartolome de las Casas. Among others. And rants like your’s tend to turn off anyone who wants to help your cause, if you’re going to be a jackass in turn. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/64 "2002-11-08T18:16:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey, disabuse all you like, but you’re wrong. I’m living proof that it’s possible for a Fundie Christian to give up his faith. > > Just because you haven’t given up your faith and have no immediate plans to do so doesn’t make it impossible to do so. Okay, so let’s run with the theory that it’s okay to bash everything that’s the result of choice. Now legitimate targets include: Muslims, Sikhs (they’re good, go for the turbans - they look so _silly_!) etc. Vegetarians, vegans, etc. Teetotallers People with SUV’s/hybrid cars [delete as appropriate] People with bad hair … In fact almost everyone. Seems like this is carte blanche to be a cunt. This can’t be what you meant, surely? Now, we could debate all day about whether this sort of abuse is _less offensive_ than that based on non-voluntary characteristics, but I don’t think that’s the point, is it? The point is that neither is okay. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/65 "2002-11-08T18:29:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dead Badger \* > \*\*Okay, so let’s run with the theory that it’s okay to bash everything that’s the result of choice. Now legitimate targets include: > > Muslims, Sikhs (they’re good, go for the turbans - they look so _silly_!) etc. > Vegetarians, vegans, etc. > Teetotallers > People with SUV’s/hybrid cars [delete as appropriate] > People with bad hair > … > > In fact almost everyone. Seems like this is carte blanche to be a cunt. This can’t be what you meant, surely? Now, we could debate all day about whether this sort of abuse is _less offensive_ than that based on non-voluntary characteristics, but I don’t think that’s the point, is it? The point is that neither is okay. \*\* In a word: yes. I can fault you all day long for the **choices you make**. I think Muslims are as wrong when it comes to spiritual matters as Christians are – and I have no problem with saying so. Do you _really_ have a problem with making fun of people with bad hair? They did an episode of Seinfeld where Jerry had a terrible haircut, and it was damned funny. Did you turn your TV off in indignant protest, that NBC (and in particular George, Kramer, and Elaine) were being, in your own words, “cunts”? My girlfriend is a vegetarian, and I (very) occasionally tease her about it, mainly along the lines of suggesting that we go to a steakhouse when we’re thinking of places to eat. I’ll admit that I’m perhaps being impolite (or, in Kyla’s words, annoying). But am I being _offensive_? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/66 "2002-11-08T18:38:38Z")
I think my point was to show a range of choices you could mock, from the important down to the trivial. No, I do not think that taking the piss out of people with bad haircuts is broadly speaking all that offensive, but if I spot someone with bad hair in the street, I tend not to shout about it because of common courtesy. If I called someone with a mullet a “mullet wearing freak” I would be offending them. That’s offensive. You’ll note also that I didn’t say you couldn’t **disagree** with those choices, I said that it was wrong to abuse people on that basis (or indeed any basis). We aren’t talking about reasoned debate here, something to which you have every entitlement. We’re talking about **abuse**. If you were to go around whingeing about the “fucking sikhs” who should take off the stupid turbans and cut their hair like a normal person, then yes, I would think you were being extremely offensive. I don’t see what’s controversial about this. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/67 "2002-11-08T18:44:26Z")
> [@](#): > > All we’re saying gobear is it’s not right to generalize and judge an entire group of people based on the actions of SOME What about MOST? Torquemada, Pope Pius XII, Pope Alexander VI, the Inquisition, the persecution of Protestants in the rign of Bloody Mary Tudor, the extermination of the Cathari, the Salem witch trials, the trial and imprisonment of Galileo, the burning of Giordano Bruno, the racial persecution ans sexual abuse of Native Indians and Australian aboriginals in this century by Christian missionaries? Among others. > [@](#): > > And rants like your’s tend to turn off anyone who wants to help your cause, if you’re going to be a jackass in turn. Hey, I’m stating clear, cold fact: that a preponderately large segment of the Christians in America despise gay people and actively discriminate against them. That’s not some–that’s most. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/68 "2002-11-08T18:52:14Z")
So you’re saying that 50.1% of all American Christians “despise gay people and actively discriminate against them.” Get a fucking grip. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/69 "2002-11-08T18:53:21Z")
Gobear Sometimes, it’s easy to argue the wrong thing with the right facts. That’s called ignoratio elenchi. Eighty percent of the American prison population is Black or Hispanic. White Nationalists use that to argue, wrongly, that Blacks and Hispanics, as a group, tend to do criminal acts. I see no difference in deriding me for being an Indian and deriding me for being a Christian. When you’re talking about people, they aren’t just Christian, or just gay, or just Hispanic. They’re a whole range of things. You should know better. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/70 "2002-11-08T19:18:45Z")
> [@](#): > > So you’re saying that 50.1% of all American Christians “despise gay people and actively discriminate against them.” > > Get a fucking grip [Ahem](http://news.christiansunite.com/religion/religion00898.shtml): > [@](#): > > Americans in general are evenly split on homosexuality, according to the study, with 45 percent calling it an acceptable lifestyle and 46 percent an unacceptable lifestyle. \*\*Born-again Christians rejected the concept by more than 2-1. A fourth (27 percent) called gay lifestyles acceptable and 66 percent said they were unacceptable. \*\* (Bolding and underlining mine) > > **Among evangelicals, 95 percent viewed homosexuality as unacceptable**. Two percent called it an acceptable lifestyle and 3 percent said they don’t know You were saying? > [@](#): > > I see no difference in deriding me for being an Indian and deriding me for being a Christian. When you’re talking about people, they aren’t just Christian, or just gay, or just Hispanic. They’re a whole range of things. Hey, I did not say one word against you for being a Christian. The organization of which you are a member, however, deserves as much abuse as it is possible for me to deliver. Whwn Chrisitian antigay groups stop agitating against gay people, when they stop telling us how disgusting we are, maybe I’ll reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/71 "2002-11-08T19:33:46Z")
So out of 1003 random people, they took the subset that consider themselves “Born Again Christians” (I wouldn’t fall in this category), and a percentage of them called gay lifestyles unacceptable. That could be 10 people for all we know. What questions were they asked? It’s pretty damn hard to get what people are really thinking and feeling with two choice answers. How many of those people believe that a homosexual lifestyle is unacceptable, but don’t believe that it’s their business to yell at those who embrace it? ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/72 "2002-11-08T19:37:16Z")
Ah. **gobear** isn’t bright enough to recognize the difference between a “Christian” and a “born-again Christian”. This explains a great deal. Free clue: “born-again Christian”, “evangelical Christian”, and “Christian” are not pointing to the same sets of people. I love how Christianity is seen as a vast, overwhelming force, but somehow people are expected to have only interacted with a comparatively small sliver of the population. But, of course, people who don’t go around screaming, “I’m doing this BECAUSE I’M CHRISTIAN” don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/73 "2002-11-08T19:42:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilairen \* > \*\*Free clue: “born-again Christian”, “evangelical Christian”, and “Christian” are not pointing to the same sets of people. > > I love how Christianity is seen as a vast, overwhelming force, but somehow people are expected to have only interacted with a comparatively small sliver of the population.\*\* Exactly! Go read my post above. I pointed out exactly how this happens and how a very large number of Christians allow it to go on happening. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/74 "2002-11-08T19:45:44Z")
> [@](#): > > You were saying? I was saying that you’re full of shit, and asking you if you were saying that 50.1% of American Christians “despise gay people and actively discriminate against them.” Your link doesn’t get even close to approaching the subject. Again, get a fucking grip. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/75 "2002-11-08T20:05:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah. gobear isn’t bright enough to recognize the difference between a “Christian” and a “born-again Christian”. This explains a great deal. Or perhaps you’re not bright enough to have read and understood the linked article. > [@](#): > > Among born-again Christians, defined by Barna as people who have made a commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today and believe they will go to heaven because they have accepted Christ, > \ > Those views were even stronger among a subset of the born again, evangelicals, which meet seven additional conditions. They respond that their faith is very important in their life today; they have personal responsibility to share their belief in Christ with non-Christians; they believe Satan exists, that eternal salvation is possible only through grace and that Christ never sinned; and they describe God as an all-knowing and all-powerful deity who created the universe and still rules it today. Mind, those are extremely nebulous definitions of the population sampled, and since the article only says that the poll was taken from a survey of 1,003 adults conducted in May, there’s no way of knowing how valid the sample was. Still, it does indicate the level of antigay sentiment among a segment of the churchgoing public. > [@](#): > > I love how Christianity is seen as a vast, overwhelming force, but somehow people are expected to have only interacted with a comparatively small sliver of the population. You do know that you just scored a point for my side, don’t you? When one meets with Christian antigay bias, folks like you claim that such beliefs exist, as you said, only in "a comparatively small sliver of the population, " no matter how often or how widespread such bias is broadcast. You would have me beleive that religious bigotry is only found in a tiny segment of the Christian populations. Sorry, sugar, but Tim Lahaye outsells John Shelby Spong by a considerable margin. I have statistics on my side, whereas you merely have handwaving. But then, I’m not bright, so no doubt the subtleties of your argument escape me. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/76 "2002-11-08T20:14:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I was saying that you’re full of shit, and asking you if you were saying that 50.1% of American Christians “despise gay people and actively discriminate against them.” And how many shades of meaning does the word “unacceptable” have anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/77 "2002-11-08T20:33:00Z")
Probably the same number of shades of meaning the words “despise” and “actively” do. Regardless, it’s a fucking given that active born-again Christians are not going to be real fond of gays. I’ll even side with you and say that they “despise” them, although we have no way of knowing, barring a census. However, the fact remains that your site does not sample from a Christian population, but from a subset therein. And once you do find a sample where the majority of generic Christians “find homosexuality unacceptable,” you will then have to provide evidence of both active discrimination and the act of despising them. And even if you do _that_, lumping the other 49.9% of Christians into that same category will still be wrong, and you will still need to get a fucking grip. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/78 "2002-11-08T20:34:29Z")
This is from page one, but I want to address it: > [@](#): > > _quixotic wrote:_ > So, really, bashing Christianity isn’t a unique type of bashing. It’s just in a separate category from racism, sexism, homophobia, and the like. If you ARE contending that Christian bashing is different, then I’ll offer the rebuttal that at least once a week I see someone noting, “Isn’t it odd that the only people you can pick on these days are fat people/Catholics/Republicans/people who wear white after Labor Day/etc.?” Christianity bashing isn’t any different from other kinds of bashing. And I’m not the one claiming it’s different. I’m saying that the people who bash Christianity think it’s “different” (and therefore OK) are mistaken. It’s not OK. Bashing isn’t OK. As far as my contention that when a group of people is welcoming someone new to their midst that they curb their tongues—I still mean that. Unless, of course, the group of people is the “Official Christian Bashing Organization”, there is no expectation from a new person to get an earful of Christian bashing, or any other kind of bashing. _ **IF** _ this group of people _does not want to be seen as boors_, they will curb their tongues until they know the new person better. That’s basically what I’m saying. If I go to a meeting for Macintosh computer fans, and I hear a bunch of the members bashing—I dunno, Californians, I’m going to think they are a bunch of boors. There was no reasonable expectation that a Mac club would hate Californians, after all! And they have no idea whether or not I am a Californian, and yet they are flapping their gums anyway. Obviously they don’t give a damn if they could possibly offend me or not. Of course the current members of this club have _every right_ to behave in any way they want, including behaving like a bunch of classless boors that were Raised by Wolves. And the rest of us have the right to _notice_ that they are behaving like classless boors who were Raised by Wolves! And as far as gobear’s contentions—sorry, still doesn’t fly with me. I didn’t shit on you, I ain’t taking any shit, end of story. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/79 "2002-11-08T20:36:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by gobear_ > **What about MOST? Torquemada, Pope Pius XII, Pope Alexander VI, the Inquisition, the persecution of Protestants in the rign of Bloody Mary Tudor, the extermination of the Cathari, the Salem witch trials, the trial and imprisonment of Galileo, the burning of Giordano Bruno, the racial persecution ans sexual abuse of Native Indians and Australian aboriginals in this century by Christian missionaries?** …and as horrible as all these things were–and as horrible as things like antigay hate crimes and senitment are now–they have not one whit to do with what an individual Christian decides to do with his/her life. Decrying Christianity as a belief system that tends to be used by people as an excuse to express violence and hatred against other human beings–that’s one thing. Claiming that _all_ Christians are hateful, or that _all_ Christians are stupid is quite another thing. Goddamn it, I don’t care what oppressed/minority/persecuted group someone’s a part of! Just because you’re being discriminated against (or whatever) doesn’t make it right for you to go around throwing broad generalizations. It doesn’t matter if the target of your predjudice is the minority or the majority–it’s still symptomatic of an unfortunately poisoned mind, and makes you look just as much the jackass as if you were spouting off against some other group. Or, at the very least, it should. There is no such thing as reverse prejudice, or reverse stereotypes. There’s just prejudice and stereotypes, and they’re just as fucking stupid when applied to Christians as they are when they’re applied to Muslims or pagans or any other group of people you’d care to name. A significant percentage of Muslims, for instance, may harbor anti-US sentiments. Let’s assume this is a fact. Is it therefore fair for me to assume that Mr. Haq who lives down the street is anti-American? Is it alright for me to assume that all Muslims are anti-American, and therefore insult Mr. Haq on that basis? Is it acceptable for me to mock him and the rest of the people in my neighborhood who go to the same mosque as him, even if none of them are present? Fuck no. Then why should it be acceptable to do the same to Christians? Goddess, I hate this kind of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773/80 "2002-11-08T20:37:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by gobear_ > **But then, I’m not bright** I’ll say. hee hee. I don’t care what the park ranger said, poking the bear is just too much fun. pokepoke [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-christians/135773.md?page=5)