# Fucking cops... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2008, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087 "2008-11-23T08:05:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/301 "2008-11-25T14:28:23Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You’re a fucking moron if you think having a gun makes a person a killer. I first started shooting when I was 8 years old. I was hunting when I was 14. As an infantryman in the PPCLI, I’ve fired many types of weapons, from pistols, AK’s, FN’s, assorted sub-machine guns, as well as being a certified machine gunner. So, please don’t act like you know me or even have a grasp of where I’m coming from. The army doesn’t teach people to blindly fall to the ground. It depends on where you are and what you are doing. The army doesn’t want automatons. It wants people who can think. At least the Canadian army did. > [@](#): > > Now go put on a pair of dry pants and let the grown-ups talk. The ISSUE I have is with some guy going to a bar and drinking while carrying a firearm. AD clarified he wasn’t drinking. It wasn’t clear in his OP if he was. Because to me safety if paramount. Guns aren’t toys, no way, no how. And if you read my first post you’ll see that I’m pretty much of the variety that if you point a weapon at someone in fun then I won’t cry if you get your fool head blown off for doing it. So, I don’t have anything against people carrying guns. I do have something against idiots carrying guns. And posers like you who think they’re Dirty Harry shouldn’t be allowed near them. [QUOTE=askeptic] Admit it you’re really twelve years old aren’t you? [/QUOTE] The sad part is he only acts like it. At least in this thread he is anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/302 "2008-11-25T14:29:04Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > In this case, I can’t see why he would take a woman home for a tryst and pull out a pistol. I don’t either, but since this thread is about carrying a weapon in public, and you referred to Spector as carrying around a gun, I’m not sure of the relevance. [QUOTE=Jack Batty] Well, I can’t be sure, but I think it was right before he shot that chick in the face. [/QUOTE] No, that wasn’t carrying a weapon. Carrying a weapon refers to public possession, not private (in home) possession. If \*\*Doors \*\*had been relating something that had happened in his foyer, this would be an entirely different thread. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/303 "2008-11-25T14:34:50Z")
FTR, **Uzi** , I never addressed **Doors** ’ evasive action. I said I agreed that cops oughtn’t be treating weapons as toys. As for me being a poser (I’ve always favored the poseur spelling), you stamped your little foot and sobbed > [@](#): > > So, please don’t act like you know me or even have a grasp of where I’m coming from. So I guess I’ll be requiring the same from you. ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_Lurker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/304 "2008-11-25T14:41:39Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Not true. It depends on the department. And most if not all have regulations about drinking and carrying. > > What you are missing is that “serious bodily injury” has a very specific legal definition. Pennsylvania "defines serious bodily injury as bodily injury which creates a substantial risk of death or which causes serious, permanent disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ. 18 Pa.C.S.A. 2301 " This does not rise to that level. What you are missing is the “fear of” part. He thought it was a gun being pointed at him, not a taser. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/305 "2008-11-25T14:46:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? When did I make light of PTSD? Show me the exact quote or fucking apologize. Just guessing here, but I imagine she’s referring to the [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10490054&postcount=138) where you say, “this fake PTSD act on Doors’ part is making me roll my eyes out of my head.” Even if you were sincerely accusing Doors of being a hoaxer, it could reasonably be read as “making light” of PTSD. Especially by, y’know, his wife. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/306 "2008-11-25T14:47:15Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If this is the best you can do, why don’t you just go away? You’re neither amusing nor even effectively insulting. Come back when you have something less banal to post. In a world where I care what you think, this would matter. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/307 "2008-11-25T14:47:38Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > I’m damn glad he “overreacted” by hitting the deck. You shouldn’t be. > [@](#): > > It’s far better to look stupid than it is to end up tasered by Sparky the Wonder Cop or shot by Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel who feels the need to defend himself by pulling his gun out of his pants. Believe me, there are things I’d rather be doing with my time than to have a visit from the guy who’s got the proceeds from Airman’s life insurance. It’s also far better to keep a level head, and not react inappropriately to the actions of others. When those reactions involve a firearm, there is a real chance that the situation will escalate from being safe, to being very dangerous. Dangerous for Doors, and dangerous for people around him. Maybe the next time he overreacts, you’ll get that visit from the insurance man, or a visit from the police, taking him away for a while. What do you think is more likely: Some random nobody walks into a bar with a laser sighted pistol and starts waving it around intending to blast someone. A cop (or pistol packing barfly) sees someone armed with a pistol dive on the floor of the bar, grabbing at his weapon and makes a really, really shitty decision. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/308 "2008-11-25T15:11:44Z")
> [@zut](#): > > Just guessing here, but I imagine she’s referring to the [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10490054&postcount=138) where you say, “this fake PTSD act on Doors’ part is making me roll my eyes out of my head.” Even if you were sincerely accusing Doors of being a hoaxer, it could reasonably be read as “making light” of PTSD. Especially by, y’know, his wife. I disagree that anyone could reasonably infer that accusing somebody of faking something is the same as making light of what they’re faking. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/309 "2008-11-25T15:43:14Z")
> [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](#): > > What you are missing is the “fear of” part. He thought it was a gun being pointed at him, not a taser. And you are missing the part where it says “intended to cause”. It is the intent of the actor not the feeling of the actee. Just because he thought there might be a gun isn’t enough. Sorry. ETA the quote from previous post so you don’t have to go back to page 4. > [@](#): > > Relevant PA Statute: > > Quote: > § 2701. Simple Assault > > (a) OFFENSE DEFINED.-- A person is guilty of assault if he: > > (1) attempts to cause or intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; > > (2) negligently causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon; > > (3) attempts by physical menace to put another in fear of imminent serious bodily injury; or > > (4) conceals or attempts to conceal a hypodermic needle on his person and intentionally or knowingly penetrates a law enforcement officer or an officer or an employee of a correctional institution, county jail or prison, detention facility or mental hospital during the course of an arrest or any search of the person. > > I didn’t do much research under 2701(a)(3), but a simple google search gives us: > > “Under Pennsylvania law, “physical menace” requires some physical act by the perpetrator intended to cause “fear of imminent serious bodily injury” in the victim. See, e.g., Commonwealth v. Reynolds, 835 A.2d 720, 726 (Pa. Super. Ct. 2003) (pointing gun constituted “menacing or frightening activity” that placed victims “in fear of imminent serious bodily injury” under § 2701(a)(3))” ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_Lurker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/310 "2008-11-25T15:55:44Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > And you are missing the part where it says “intended to cause”. It is the intent of the actor not the feeling of the actee. Just because he thought there might be a gun isn’t enough. Sorry. > > ETA the quote from previous post so you don’t have to go back to page 4. The intention of the actor is a question of fact. My exact words were: an argument could be made. We don’t know the intent of the wielder, but there are grounds for making a case. My point to you was only that the object does not have to be capable of causing “serious injury” as defined under PA law for it to amount to an assault charge. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/311 "2008-11-25T16:11:12Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > A cop (or pistol packing barfly) sees someone armed with a pistol dive on the floor of the bar, grabbing at his weapon and makes a really, really shitty decision. Wait, so a person with a weapon shouldn’t defend themselves against a person with a weapon because another person with a weapon might see the second person’s weapon and decide to try and defend other people, who may or may not have weapons and who may or may not have been endangered by the second person with a weapon, with his weapon? What about the person who’s defending the weaponless from the person with the weapon who’s defending himself against a weapon with his weapon? Blimey. Heaven forfend there is a fourth person with a weapon in the bar - I think we’d need a whole new field of mathematics. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/312 "2008-11-25T16:36:31Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I would like some definition of ‘underlying medical condition’ that includes ‘standing on a ledge’, please. I take it that you don’t have a cite that definitely links dying directly with being tased, otherwise you’d have included one. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/313 "2008-11-25T16:37:32Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Wait, so a person with a weapon shouldn’t defend themselves A person shouldn’t overreact to an event while carrying a sidearm. Second, if you’re carrying a weapon, and choose to defend yourself from a perceived threat, you should realize that there is a chance that something really bad is going to happen. Not all perceived threats are real threats, and it would be a shame if something bad happened because of a threat that didn’t exist. MsRobyn was thrilled that Doors had such an extreme reaction to a laser dot, and didn’t seem to appreciate that his diving on the floor while reaching for his gun could have gotten him looking down the barrel of that cop’s gun. That happens, you’re one dropped beer bottle away from a shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Library\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cab0a1/32.png) [@Library\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Library_Boy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/314 "2008-11-25T17:13:14Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Apples and oranges. It’s generally accepted that bringing guns to bars is not a good idea. \ I would say that it’s not generally accepted in states were it is not against the law. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/315 "2008-11-25T17:28:48Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Not all perceived threats are real threats, and it would be a shame if something bad happened because of a threat that didn’t exist. A potential shame, too, if you don’t react and a threat does exist, which of course it did. Anyway, this thing is just going in circles now. I’m off to ponder my proposed scheme of N-dimensional weaponomics topologies. How to account for the light beer factor, though; that’s the key. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/316 "2008-11-25T17:44:04Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > A potential shame, too, if you don’t react and a threat does exist, which of course it did. Was his reaction to the threat correct for the actual nature of the threat? The actual nature of the threat being a couple of cops dorking around with a taser. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/317 "2008-11-25T18:36:54Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I don’t either, but since this thread is about carrying a weapon in public, and you referred to Spector as carrying around a gun, I’m not sure of the relevance. > No, that wasn’t carrying a weapon. Carrying a weapon refers to public possession, not private (in home) possession. If \*\*Doors \*\*had been relating something that had happened in his foyer, this would be an entirely different thread. I can only assume that the OP had a good reason to carry his weapon to the bar. As for [Phil Spector](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Spector): [QUOTE=Wikipedia] Stories of Phil Spector’s gunplay mounted over the years, including his discharging a firearm while in the studio with John Lennon during the recording of his cover album Rock ‘n’ Roll, placing a loaded pistol at Leonard Cohen’s head during the sessions for Death of a Ladies’ Man, and forcing Dee Dee Ramone to play bass guitar to Spector’s specifications at gunpoint. Cohen told Rolling Stone magazine in 1978 that, “Phil couldn’t resist annihilating me. I don’t think he can tolerate any other shadows in his darkness.” [/QUOTE] I think that if you carry a weapon to a recording studio, that’s carrying it in public. Especially if you use it in a business transaction. I suppose, however, if Spector hadn’t had a firearm, and Clarkson had been found strangled or hit over the head with a blunt object, the jury wouldn’t have come to a mistrial the first time. But Spector seems to prefer firearms. And I don’t think the OP over-reacted, because he obviously felt threatened. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/318 "2008-11-25T19:37:20Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > An air rifle with a laser scope? This will be in the remake of “A Christmas Story”. No laser scope, Dan. Just your average pellet rifle. It does tend to screw with you for a while, though. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/319 "2008-11-25T19:39:54Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I take it that you don’t have a cite that definitely links dying directly with being tased, otherwise you’d have included one. Right? [http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1079992/iman\_morales\_taser\_death\_leads\_to\_nyc.html](http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1079992/iman_morales_taser_death_leads_to_nyc.html) No, why would I have one of those? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/320 "2008-11-25T19:41:05Z")
Depends on the pellet gun, of course, but some of them can be [quite dangerous](http://video.aol.com/video-detail/pig-vs-pellet-gun/2366887065). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087.md?page=17)