# Fucking cops... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2008, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087 "2008-11-23T08:05:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/401 "2008-11-27T15:14:58Z")
As serious as PTSD is, I’m pretty sure a man can’t catch it from his wife. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/402 "2008-11-27T16:19:19Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > I haven’t watched _Tango and Cash_ even once, and am quite well aware that laser sights are stupid. Actually, I’d consider a laser sight to be a pretty good idea on a pistol. Considering how the most common reaction reports we see involving pistols and combat are from the police, and how they usually involve short range and about 40 rounds downrange for every 3 that hit the target… yeah, laser might be a real good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/403 "2008-11-27T16:23:35Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > As serious as PTSD is, I’m pretty sure a man can’t catch it from his wife. Obviously you have never met my ex. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/404 "2008-11-27T17:32:57Z")
> [@FarmerChick](#): > > I just quoted your last statement because that was the final one for me. That’s kind of retarded on your part, don’t you think? You quoted a post that was neither inaccurate nor offensive because you didn’t like stuff I said in other posts. That’s not too bright. > [@](#): > > Then you blah blah blah for a bit. And go on about how your military training didn’t involve real firearms training, so no way could AD’s. Nope. I never said that. You’re making things up. I didn’t mention my own military firearms training (as minimal as it was) until after AF vets had confirmed my suspicion that the AF wasn’t much different than the Navy in that regard. You obviously don’t know shit about the military, so I guess you don’t know that Air Force and Navy are not much on infantry. They bomb people. I knew that there was no extensive firearms training in Air Force boot camp, but I didn’t know for sure that Doors might not have gone to some kind of specialized school afterwards (though I still knew that was unlikely in the AF). Basically, a lot of ignorant civilians (Doors didn’t claim this, it was other dumbasses who didn’t know what they were talking about) were under the impression that Doors would have extensive firearms training just because he’s in the Air Force. Virtually everyone in this thread who’s been in the military knew that was a joke. Sorry we made you feel stupid, but we’re here to fight ignorance, after all. > [@](#): > > It didn’t last though, when **MsRobyn** defended AD, and [slapped you down](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10494491&postcount=287)for the PTSD crack with an explanation why, you go back to being an [idiot.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10494701&postcount=298) > > **Zut** points out to you the offending [post,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10490054&postcount=138) you post more blah blah blah when the right thing to do is say “Sorry MsRobyn if I offended you, it was not my intent.” > > So, in short sir, you are an idiot. Robyn falsely accused me of “making light” of PTSD. I did no such thing. That was a lie. There was no “offending post.” I have nothing to apologize for. She’s the one who made a false accusation. If you would like to defend Robyn’s accusation, then I’d love to hear it. Tell me how I “made light” of PTSD (something I’ve had to get treatment for myself, by the way. Not for anything in the military but from severe early childhood abuse). If you can’t defend the accusation, then your insult towards me is unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_Lurker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/405 "2008-11-27T17:45:56Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Thank you for proving my point. I don’t even know what your point is anymore. You started out by telling me that I “missed” the definition of serious bodily injury. Then when you realized that was largely irrelevant, you started harping on intent. As I said: > [@me](#): > > The intention of the actor is a question of fact… We don’t know the intent of the wielder, but there are grounds for making a case. Here’s a scenario for you: on interview the guy who aimed the taser says, “That Doors guy is a douche. I knew he was a little high strung, so I wanted to see him shit his pants. Who knew he’d actually go diving over the bar? Hysterical.” How does assault look now? You’re a cop, right? People must love getting arrested by you. “It wasn’t rape, officer, we were only goofing around.” “No intent here, boys, let him go.” Or is it only when other cops are involved that your Matt Parkman lack of intent mind reading abilities kick in? Is this guy guilty of assault? Fuck if I know, but, and I repeat, “an argument could be made.” ---
**Author:** ![FarmerChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@FarmerChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FarmerChick)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/406 "2008-11-27T19:08:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s kind of retarded on your part, don’t you think? You quoted a post that was neither inaccurate nor offensive because you didn’t like stuff I said in other posts. That’s not too bright. > > Nope. I never said that. You’re making things up. I didn’t mention my own military firearms training (as minimal as it was) until after AF vets had confirmed my suspicion that the AF wasn’t much different than the Navy in that regard. You obviously don’t know shit about the military, so I guess you don’t know that Air Force and Navy are not much on infantry. They bomb people. I knew that there was no extensive firearms training in Air Force boot camp, but I didn’t know for sure that Doors might not have gone to some kind of specialized school afterwards (though I still knew that was unlikely in the AF). Basically, a lot of ignorant civilians (Doors didn’t claim this, it was other dumbasses who didn’t know what they were talking about) were under the impression that Doors would have extensive firearms training just because he’s in the Air Force. Virtually everyone in this thread who’s been in the military knew that was a joke. Sorry we made you feel stupid, but we’re here to fight ignorance, after all. > > Robyn falsely accused me of “making light” of PTSD. I did no such thing. That was a lie. There was no “offending post.” I have nothing to apologize for. She’s the one who made a false accusation. If you would like to defend Robyn’s accusation, then I’d love to hear it. Tell me how I “made light” of PTSD (something I’ve had to get treatment for myself, by the way. Not for anything in the military but from severe early childhood abuse). If you can’t defend the accusation, then your insult towards me is unjustified. That’s the best you can do? I’m not retarded, I don’t feel stupid, I do stand by my statement you are an idiot. You can continue to blah blah blah all you want, I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/407 "2008-11-27T21:28:58Z")
> [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](#): > > I don’t even know what your point is anymore. You started out by telling me that I “missed” the definition of serious bodily injury. Then when you realized that was largely irrelevant, you started harping on intent. > > As I said: > > Here’s a scenario for you: on interview the guy who aimed the taser says, “That Doors guy is a douche. I knew he was a little high strung, so I wanted to see him shit his pants. Who knew he’d actually go diving over the bar? Hysterical.” > > How does assault look now? > > You’re a cop, right? People must love getting arrested by you. “It wasn’t rape, officer, we were only goofing around.” “No intent here, boys, let him go.” Or is it only when other cops are involved that your Matt Parkman lack of intent mind reading abilities kick in? > > Is this guy guilty of assault? Fuck if I know, but, and I repeat, “an argument could be made.” What a stupid post. I hope you realized that but missed the edit window. Of course if someone showed intent then intent can be proved. What the fuck are you talking about? I was going by the only evidence available, the words of the OP. And then, as I quoted, Doors cleared it up even more which completely proved my point. There was no threat of serious bodily injury. And as stated by the OP there was no intent. There was no assault. _don’t even know what your point is anymore. You started out by telling me that I “missed” the definition of serious bodily injury. Then when you realized that was largely irrelevant, you started harping on intent._ My point was and is that there was no assault. There were two components involved if this was an assault. Both are important. First was if the person was threatened with serious bodily injury. He was not. Second if the actor intended to make the person fear that he was being threatened with serious bodily injury. First you seemed to be ignorant of the legal definition of serious bodily injury. They are not just three words randomly thrown together. You also missed the second major element of the crime, intent. Sorry if you think that mind reading ability is needed for that. Lawmakers and courts around the country don’t seem to think so since intent is an element that needs to be proven for quite a few crimes. Then you mention rape? What the fuck? You pick a crime where intent has nothing to do with it: > [@](#): > > 2C:14-2. Sexual assault. > > a. An actor is guilty of aggravated sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual penetration with another person under any one of the following circumstances: > > (1)The victim is less than 13 years old; > > (2)The victim is at least 13 but less than 16 years old; and > > (a)The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the third degree, or > > (b)The actor has supervisory or disciplinary power over the victim by virtue of the actor’s legal, professional, or occupational status, or > > (c)The actor is a resource family parent, a guardian, or stands in loco parentis within the household; > > (3)The act is committed during the commission, or attempted commission, whether alone or with one or more other persons, of robbery, kidnapping, homicide, aggravated assault on another, burglary, arson or criminal escape; > > (4)The actor is armed with a weapon or any object fashioned in such a manner as to lead the victim to reasonably believe it to be a weapon and threatens by word or gesture to use the weapon or object; > > (5)The actor is aided or abetted by one or more other persons and the actor uses physical force or coercion; > > (6)The actor uses physical force or coercion and severe personal injury is sustained by the victim; > > (7)The victim is one whom the actor knew or should have known was physically helpless, mentally defective or mentally incapacitated. > > Aggravated sexual assault is a crime of the first degree. > > b.An actor is guilty of sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual contact with a victim who is less than 13 years old and the actor is at least four years older than the victim. > > c.An actor is guilty of sexual assault if he commits an act of sexual penetration with another person under any one of the following circumstances: > > (1)The actor uses physical force or coercion, but the victim does not sustain severe personal injury; > > (2)The victim is on probation or parole, or is detained in a hospital, prison or other institution and the actor has supervisory or disciplinary power over the victim by virtue of the actor’s legal, professional or occupational status; > > (3)The victim is at least 16 but less than 18 years old and: > > (a)The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the third degree; or > > (b)The actor has supervisory or disciplinary power of any nature or in any capacity over the victim; or > > (c)The actor is a resource family parent, a guardian, or stands in loco parentis within the household; > > (4)The victim is at least 13 but less than 16 years old and the actor is at least four years older than the victim. > > Sexual assault is a crime of the second degree. Don’t see the word intent in there anywhere. Do you? _Is this guy guilty of assault?_ No. _Fuck if I know_ Obviously, but I do , _but, and I repeat, "an argument could be made._ Only by the ignorant. Again, legal terms have specific meanings. Stop pulling them out of your ass and pretending you know what you are talking about. Or continue doing it to prove your ignorance. If you made it a question in the first place maybe you could have learned something, if that is possible. Hopefully you are just being defensive now and we can have some nice conversations in the future. Happy Thanksgiving. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/408 "2008-11-27T21:49:58Z")
> [@FarmerChick](#): > > That’s the best you can do? I’m not retarded, I don’t feel stupid, I do stand by my statement you are an idiot. > > You can continue to blah blah blah all you want, I’m done. Basically you’re admitting you can’t back up your shit. Fucking coward. ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_Lurker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/409 "2008-11-27T22:24:26Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > There was no threat of serious bodily injury. As I said many times over. Doesn’t need to be to constitute assault. Only a reasonable fear of it, for which courts have found a laser pointer sufficient. > [@](#): > > And as stated by the OP there was no intent. The OP doesn’t know the actor’s intent. I don’t either. > [@](#): > > Then you mention rape? What the fuck? You pick a crime where intent has nothing to do with it Hyperbolic extreme example, meant mostly for humor. > [@](#): > > Again, legal terms have specific meanings. Stop pulling them out of your ass and pretending you know what you are talking about. I’m a partner in a mid-size New York law firm. > [@](#): > > Happy Thanksgiving. You too. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/410 "2008-11-28T13:48:35Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > You are forgetting, he’s a vet. He has reflexes, and he isn’t supposed to think in such a way. He is supposed to notice and react, and the cop is lucky he managed to be peaceable enough. Just like it isn’t wise to poke at a caged bear with a short stick, it isn’t wise to point any kind of targeting laser (even a laser pointer) at people who might very well have ingrained reflexes. What ever happened to the attempted ban of those laser pointers anyway, did it pass in some states because of the concern that it would trigger the reflexes of members of the military? I know it was a Marine trying to get them off the shelves, and I could see his point. It is _VERY_ stupid of people to point them at others. I can see how they would be useful in the office, and they should stay in the office. Meh…knowing what I know about Doors job he’s not out there running and gunning. He’s on flight crew (if I recall from his posts over the years). He’s not out there running convoys getting shot at. Certainly not targetted with lasers. I agree the cop was a douche, but I think it’s a little dishonest to say that his tours in Iraq molded his reaction to a laser on him when he (probably) wasn’t in that position in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_Lurker)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/411 "2008-11-28T18:14:29Z")
I have more time now, so I’ll give this one last shot at explanation. Is it possible that the person who aimed the taser acted with intent? Certainly. The only person who knows for sure is him. So it becomes a question of proof. If I can prove that he acted with intent, are the rest of the facts sufficient to find for simple assault? I say yes. Would I have a better argument if it was a loaded shotgun instead of a taser with a laser pointer? Yes. Would I have a harder argument if it was a laser pointer and not a taser (which arguably looks like a gun?), yes, but some courts have held the pointer enough, so I could still make a reasonable argument and not get laughed out of court. Back to intent. Can I prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he acted with intent? If we go only on the facts in the OP and various follow-ups, I doubt it. If the taser wielder said something stupid that wasn’t mentioned here (see above), then I’d have a much better chance. Could I make an argument anyway? Yes, I’d argue that he intended to scare him and that no reasonable person would point a weapon at another human being without intending to put them at fear for their life. Would I win on this alone? I sincerely doubt it, too much reasonable doubt as to intent. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/412 "2008-11-29T05:52:21Z")
> [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](#): > > Could I make an argument anyway? Yes, I’d argue that he intended to scare him and that no reasonable person would point a weapon at another human being without intending to put them at fear for their life. Would I win on this alone? I sincerely doubt it, too much reasonable doubt as to intent. Whether you won or lost, it’d be fun to see the taser guy squirm. ---
**Author:** ![malm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@malm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/413 "2008-11-29T12:42:19Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Meh…knowing what I know about Doors job he’s not out there running and gunning. He’s on flight crew (if I recall from his posts over the years). He’s not out there running convoys getting shot at. Certainly not targetted with lasers. > > I agree the cop was a douche, but I think it’s a little dishonest to say that his tours in Iraq molded his reaction to a laser on him when he (probably) wasn’t in that position in Iraq. ## I was in the Norwegian military (verneplikt\conscript\National service) and had an experience where I almost fired my gun on reflex. it does not take many hours of firearms exercise before you almost do things by reflex action. My story: I was at guard duty and a car came driving towards the (open) gate I was guarding. I could see the car was going too fast so I signaled for him to stop while I stepped out of the way. He drove past, I spun around yelling “STOPP”. He stopped and i realised i had almost cocked the handle and prepared for a warning shot. I had no combat experience and not too many hours of firearms exercise. I was just a few months out of basic (boot camp,whatever) if I remember correctly. not to much time to mold me into a soldier… ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/414 "2008-11-29T16:52:23Z")
> [@malm](#): > > ## I was in the Norwegian military (verneplikt\conscript\National service) and had an experience where I almost fired my gun on reflex. it does not take many hours of firearms exercise before you almost do things by reflex action. > > My story: I was at guard duty and a car came driving towards the (open) gate I was guarding. I could see the car was going too fast so I signaled for him to stop while I stepped out of the way. He drove past, I spun around yelling “STOPP”. He stopped and i realised i had almost cocked the handle and prepared for a warning shot. > I had no combat experience and not too many hours of firearms exercise. I was just a few months out of basic (boot camp,whatever) if I remember correctly. > not to much time to mold me into a soldier… I’m in the same branch as Doors. I know exactly how much firearms training he gets (on duty anyway). It’s not much. Less than a couple hours a year at most. ---
**Author:** ![malm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@malm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/415 "2008-11-30T19:04:34Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Meh…knowing what I know about Doors job he’s not out there running and gunning. He’s on flight crew (if I recall from his posts over the years). He’s not out there running convoys getting shot at. Certainly not targetted with lasers. > > I agree the cop was a douche, but I think it’s a little dishonest to say that his tours in Iraq molded his reaction to a laser on him when he (probably) wasn’t in that position in Iraq. > [@Cubsfan](#): > > I’m in the same branch as Doors. I know exactly how much firearms training he gets (on duty anyway). It’s not much. Less than a couple hours a year at most. I don’t believe people need a lot of running and gunning to do reflex actions like that. I didn’t. Basic survival instinct pluss a little bit of training\competence with firearms might be enough. Ok. You know better than I how his job is. Maybe you’re completely correct about his tours in Iraq having nothing to do with his reaction. But I don’t like the dishonest remark. By calling him dishonest you say he’s lying. It might not be against pit rules, but I don’t like it. I apologize if that’s wrong of me. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/416 "2008-11-30T20:46:55Z")
> [@malm](#): > > Maybe you’re completely correct about his tours in Iraq having nothing to do with his reaction. But I don’t like the dishonest remark. By calling him dishonest you say he’s lying. It might not be against pit rules, but I don’t like it. I apologize if that’s wrong of me. It’s a rough life I guess. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087/417 "2008-12-01T21:13:44Z")
Plenty of people are clamoring for a ban on tasers, including Amnesty International. Stating that their safety record is overblown, and several fatalities have resulted. Here is [CBS](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/12/earlyshow/main648859.shtml) news from a few years ago reporting 70 such deaths. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-cops/474087.md?page=20)