# Fucking crackers and virus writers! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 13, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795 "2003-08-13T01:36:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bongmaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Bongmaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bongmaster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/21 "2003-08-13T19:07:57Z")
Hell, keep ‘em comin’, I’m making a good living here. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/22 "2003-08-13T19:43:51Z")
You people still use Windows? ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/23 "2003-08-13T20:14:33Z")
Yes, **rjung**. Call us nutty, but many of us prefer not only having the widest selection of software for any OS in the world available at our fingertips, but also being able to build our own computers with exactly the parts _we_ want for half the price of a Mac. Also, I think you know this already, but if everyone was using Macs, they’re be plenty of nasty viruses available for them. But, hey, if security through obscurity is your thing, good for you. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/24 "2003-08-13T20:29:31Z")
He may be a Linux d00d. Then all those benefits, well except for software, apply to him as well ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/25 "2003-08-13T20:40:41Z")
Nah, he was Mac evangelizing in another thread earlier today. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/26 "2003-08-13T21:03:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FordPrefect \* > \*\*He may be a Linux d00d. Then all those benefits, well except for software, apply to him as well \*\* All those benefits are beginning to also apply to Windows users who are at least 3 years behind the times. And we get to have the wide selection of software too! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/27 "2003-08-13T23:19:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by neutron star \* > Yes, **rjung**. Call us nutty, but many of us prefer not only having the widest selection of software for any OS in the world available at our fingertips, but also being able to build our own computers with exactly the parts _we_ want for half the price of a Mac. Then don’t go crabbin’ when you get stung by the skript kiddies. 😉 > [@](#): > > Also, I think you know this already, but if everyone was using Macs, they’re be plenty of nasty viruses available for them. Speaking as a guy with a Masters in computer science and fifteen years working in the field, I don’t think this is the case – UNIX-based operating systems (such as MacOS X, Linux, and Sun Solaris) are _much_ more secure and resilient to rogue programs than anything Microsoft has ever made. To do the kind of damage that Windows users endure would require either root access or administrative permissions to run as sudo, neither of which is easily obtained without the user knowing about it. But keep believing this myth if it makes you feel better. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/28 "2003-08-13T23:46:52Z")
Part of the reason ISPs are feeling the burn on this is that a ton of their bandwidth is being taken up as their subscribers’ unpatched machines are being hit left and right with connection attempts due to the Blaster worm and RPC exploit. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/29 "2003-08-14T00:23:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Speaking as a guy with a Masters in computer science and fifteen years working in the field, I don’t think this is the case – UNIX-based operating systems (such as MacOS X, Linux, and Sun Solaris) are _much_ more secure and resilient to rogue programs than anything Microsoft has ever made. To do the kind of damage that Windows users endure would require either root access or administrative permissions to run as sudo, neither of which is easily obtained without the user knowing about it. \*\* Well, I’m not going to butt heads with your education and experience or anything, but, \*nix root exploits do exist, do they not? And don’t you think that if 95% of the people in the country were running \*nix-based OSes, we’d have a hell of a lot more people looking for those exploits? Now, I’m not saying that Microsoft is perfect. I’m not saying there’s any reason in the world for Windows 2000 Pro or Windows XP to have a fucking TFTP server in their default installs (not to mention the next-to-useless Messenger service). I am, however, saying that there are damn good reasons that we continue to put up with it, and all the snide, one-line posts in the world aren’t going to change it. I like playing new games. I like having tons of free software choices. I also like when those free programs are intuitive and pleasant to use, which pretty much rules out most Linux programs I’ve tried. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/30 "2003-08-14T00:33:43Z")
Most ‘root exploits’ in \*nix involve users attempting to get into your box and su to root so they can have full and total control. It requires an individual effort on the part of the person hacking the box, since it’s fairly rare that the security on two different \*nix boxes will be exactly the same. There are security advantages to \*nix in that you can refuse to allow users to compile binaries and force them to use just what you give them, which means that unless a cracker gets a precompiled binary to run in there, if he has execute permission on files you didn’t give to normal users, running a rooting tool will be much more difficult. You can knock it if you want, but there are definite stability and security reasons that root nameservers and such don’t run Windows. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/31 "2003-08-14T00:50:20Z")
catsix speaks the truth. Most security issues on \*nix machines are from social engineering or from password cracking programs that find idiots with simple passwords. Traditionally a source of problems were from people who never changed the root passwords shipped with the system, but that is pretty much fixed by requiring new passwords. I’ve been using Unixes for over 20 years and never suffered a minute of downtime from a worm or virus. I didn’t get hit by the Morris worm because I was working at Bell Labs at the time, and he fixed the sendmail bug when he interned there. In a way I think we owe this guy our thanks. He could have made his code do some really nasty things. A lot of people got a lesson without losing much if anything. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/32 "2003-08-14T01:08:25Z")
The last time my \*nix box went down, it was because the firefighters sprayed water on it while trying to put out the fire in the building that housed the box. No real point to this post, just must _wiping tear from eye_ express my fondness for a computer that runs for a year or more at a time. Unix. Rebooting is for adding new hardware. ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/33 "2003-08-14T01:58:00Z")
I gotta pitch in about the latest Linux desktop distros. Due mostly ,I think, to the newer kernels Mandrake,RedHat and Suse are every bit as simple to install and use as Windows. The real strength of Linux is that it’s a “transparent” OS. Nothing is hidden. I do not advocate Linux for everyone but if it had a 20-30% market share Microsoft might be forced to “polish” their software a little more before they put it on the market. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/34 "2003-08-14T02:25:34Z")
Well… yes, unix is more secure in general because of some architectural reasons. But the real reason it doesn’t get beat up as bad is because Microsoft has the market, and just like far more people write useful software for Microsoft, well far more people write nasty software for Microsoft as well. Same thing with Macintoshes. You want wide market acceptance for your worm? Write for Microsoft. Unix has had plenty of it’s spills as well over the years, including the recent slapper worm. Apache, OpenSSL, Sendmail – each of these have had plenty of famous vulnerabilities that plenty of Hackers (that’s what I said) have taken advantage of. ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/35 "2003-08-14T03:28:47Z")
Here’s a little experiment for you Bill H. Install a user controllable firewall (I’m a fan of Sygate Pro) that allows you to write your own rules. Then install a browser such as Opera or MozillaFirebird that is not Windows integrated. Block everything except that browser. Use nothing but that browser for 24 hours and then check your traffic/packet logs. Pick a few entries and do a Reverse Lookup. The default XP firewall blocks inbound traffic only and does not even moniter outbound traffic. See the problem yet? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/36 "2003-08-14T04:53:03Z")
Guess I don’t follow your point, **Read\_Neck**. And I’m pretty steeped in this stuff. Seems you’re pointing out that the XP firewall is less active than a Sygate firewall, which is true. But I really don’t see how that refutes (or even relates) to my point. Wanna elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/37 "2003-08-14T06:16:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > There are security advantages to \*nix in that you can refuse to allow users to compile binaries and force them to use just what you give them, which means that unless a cracker gets a precompiled binary to run in there, if he has execute permission on files you didn’t give to normal users, running a rooting tool will be much more difficult. Sorry, but “cite”? You can compile binaries on a unix system any number of unusual ways which can’t be prevented, including ‘cat’. The only way you can prevent it is by disallowing all write access to the filesystem, which is just as much an option in windows. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by rjung_ > To do the kind of damage that Windows users endure would require either root access or administrative permissions to run as sudo …or a server with a buffer overrun (apache, sendmail, sshd, gnome, ftpd, to name a few). The way people break into windows boxes is not inherently less likely on a unix box. IIS has a **long** way to go before it catches up with the number of holes sendmail has had over the years, and the holes are due to precisely the same errors. To suggest that unix is immune to this is silly. Don’t get me wrong. I’m a unix nerd. But I’m an honest unix nerd. If unix were to appear on 90% of the desktop machines in the world, it sure as hell wouldn’t look like the well-secured unix servers you’re used to. It would have shitloads of poorly-tested user-level fluff with security holes in it. And it would have shitloads of script kiddies looking for those holes. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/38 "2003-08-14T06:42:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Voyager \* > \*\*In a way I think we owe this guy our thanks. He could have made his code do some really nasty things. A lot of people got a lesson without losing much if anything. \*\* I’d thank a guy who wrote a virus to automatically patch the computer. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/39 "2003-08-14T07:29:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ntucker \* > If unix were to appear on 90% of the desktop machines in the world, it sure as hell wouldn’t look like the well-secured unix servers you’re used to. It would have shitloads of poorly-tested user-level fluff with security holes in it. Why? What law is there that would _mandate_ a consumer-level UNIX box to have all sorts of insecure crap loading it down? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795/40 "2003-08-14T09:51:42Z")
I remember an interview with the CEO of SouthWest airlines 10 years ago. They asked him, “Why do you keep cutting the sitting space down, reduce the meal quality, etc.?” And he replied, “Because that’s what the people want.” And it was true. People would rather pay a cheaper fare than have a wider seat. **rjung** wrote > [@](#): > > Why? What law is there that would mandate a consumer-level UNIX box to have all sorts of insecure crap loading it down? Well, because that’s what consumers demand. Yes, really. People want features, and they’re willing to have them at the cost of instability and lack of reliability. Companies that deliver features faster sell products, and companies that deliver stable versions don’t. Security is merely one of those stability features. Yes, everyone wants it, but they’d rather have new features. That does seem to be changing somewhat, as security problems are growing more severe recently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-crackers-and-virus-writers/194795.md?page=3)