# Fucking hypocritical europeans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 25, 2002, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534 "2002-04-25T13:17:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/41 "2002-04-26T15:25:27Z")
CLedet > [@](#): > > Futile Gesture thinks SUV’s suck. Well my wife and son were involved in a serious auto accident today. She drives a Chevrolet Suburban 4X4. I am thanking the Good Lord for that SUV right now. My family doesn’t have a scratch. Belly ache all you want, SUV’s are safe. Thats what matters to me - SAFETY. Good to hear that your wife and child came out ok from their accident. What type of vehicles were involved other than your SUV? did everyone escape unharmed? I certainly hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/42 "2002-04-26T15:59:10Z")
It isn’t often I read something and think, “Gosh, I’m wonderful”, but, strangely enough, this thread is doing it. I don’t own a car… I recycle… I don’t smoke… I don’t cycle without a helmet… I turn off my computer monitor… So far, I am without a flaw. Americans, I am your role model, the non-hypocritical, environmentally friendly European. There may be a song in this, along the lines of “I am the very model of a modern Euro-citizen”. (Yes, I know, sooner or later, someone’s going to turn up some reprehensible activity I’m disgustingly guilty of. But, until they do, I’m going to feel smug! :D) ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/43 "2002-04-26T16:06:20Z")
One word **Steve** : underpants. ---
**Author:** ![CLedet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@CLedet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CLedet)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/44 "2002-04-26T16:30:13Z")
TwistofFate, the other vehicle involved was a Dodge Neon. The Neon suffered moderate damage. The driver of the Neon thinks she won the lotery. Another great American tradition and a subject for another pit thread. kabbes, sailor also said that that the last thing Germans want or need is Americans telling them how to drive. I completely agree with that. The Americans don’t want or need those criticisms either. And as far as those statistics on oil useage, its a bit slanted when demographics aren’t considered. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/45 "2002-04-26T17:03:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > \*\*An understandable and commendable rant **Podkayne**. > > Now tell us again how his continent of origin is relevant. > > pan \*\* The fact that he’s constantly complaining about wasteful AMERICANS (present company excepted, of course) is what makes his origins relevant. If he was American, he might say the same things about Americans and SUVs and Kyoto, but it wouldn’t be with the same air of smug superiority he can inject when he is clearly and obviously seperate from the nationality he is criticizing. Same would go if he was South American or Asian or African or Australian or Antarctican, I suppose. I could just throw up my hands and call him a damn ferriner, if you prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Xerxes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/d2c977/32.png) [@Xerxes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xerxes)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/46 "2002-04-26T17:59:32Z")
_RickJay said_ > [@](#): > > You HEAR about the U.S. government getting all Kyoto-shy, but how many nations have actually implemented it? Are there any? Well, we’re days away from ratifying. Our Environment Secretary has said: > [@](#): > > The European Community took the decision to ratify the Kyoto Protocol on Monday 4 March. The Council Decision will also give legal certainty to the EU ‘bubble’ agreement. The UK and other Member States can all now complete their national ratification procedures. > > The process for the UK is straightforward. The Protocol will be laid before Parliament for 21 sitting days. This will mean that the Foreign Secretary will be in a position to sign the UK’s instrument of ratification on or after 19 April. And in point of fact, we are already ahead of the game: > [@](#): > > " Ratification will mean that the UK is legally bound by its Kyoto target to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 12.5% below 1990 levels in 2008-2012. The UK’s climate change programme sets out how we will meet this target. We estimate that the policies in the programme could reduce the UK’s emissions by 23% by 2010. > > " This is well beyond our Kyoto target and moves us towards our more challenging domestic goal to cut carbon dioxide emissions by 20 per cent by 2010. > > " We have already made significant progress in reducing our emissions which we estimate will be more than 13 per cent below 1990 levels in 2000. This means the UK will be one of the few developed countries to meet the original target that was agreed at Rio de Janeiro in 1992 to return emissions to 1990 levels by 2000. From [this](http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2002/020307a.htm) article. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Feynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@Feynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feynn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/47 "2002-04-26T18:17:10Z")
Coldy - It seems that you’re argument that North American vehicles and their inferior mileage doesn’t wash. The specs you gave for your 1400 CC Peugot are very similar to what I get with the 3.8 litre high output V6 that is nestled under the hood of my Ford Windstar. My old T-bird with the 2.3 litre turbo got 34mpg on my last vacation where I was cruising down the highway at 120 - 130 kmh. Mind you… I guess that the german designed engine might have something to do with it’s good performance. 🙂 What are you comparing here? Both of my vehicles are larger than your Peugot and yet, seem to get better mileage. The previously mentioned Dodge Neon is downright miserly in the fuel consumption department. A great number of foreign vehicles are purchased here as well… I am hoping our next vehicle will be a Volvo diesel because to me, 30 mpg still isn’t good enough. ---
**Author:** ![tallinu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@tallinu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tallinu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/48 "2002-04-26T21:32:46Z")
Although I can agree with the milage figures given, I wonder how much the impact of older, less efficient cars in the US counts against this imbalance, compared to Europe. I have no clue what the proportion of older (for the sake of argument pre-1990) cars in Europe is, but drving newer cars significantly changes consumption. Case in point, my own car, a 2000 Camaro Z28. Quick specs: 300+ hp ~160 mph top speed (gov limited) 5.7 L pushrod V-8 (as in 45 y/o design) Electronic FI, ignition, damn near everything else Most people think it’s a gas hog, and it can be, if I treat every stoplight as the dragstrip, or the passing lane as autocross, milage drops into the low teens. Normal driving in town and highway I get 20 mpg, with the occasional burst of speed and tire queals (hey, it’s a Camaro). The most interesting point of this though is comparison to what **Coldfire** gave for his Pugeot, and I’m not knocking what is a heck of a car that he has. I drove my car across the country from Chcago to Idaho, using the freeways and averaging 80-90 mph, I kept very close track of fuel usage because at the time the car was new and I wanted to see the differences to the older Camaro’s I’ve had. After tallying up the notes I kept, I averaged 27 mpg. No way could my older cars have come close to that, and the engines in basic design were almost identical. So the fuel injection and six speeds really did make a difference. So it comes down to this, besides the higher consumption SUV’s people so love to bash, could it be older cars, which in the US there’s millions of, causing alot of the inequity? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/49 "2002-04-26T22:15:04Z")
Good point about the older cars. Although I seriously don’t know how to compare the percentage of pre-1990 cars in Europe vs. the US: in my country, I’d say 90% of all cars are post-1990. But judging by what I’ve seen on the roads in Italy or Greece, it could be the reverse over there. 😉 So, let’s assume that percentage on the whole is equal, and thus not a factor. Although, as said, it’s a good point. Anyone who can provide stats (I couldn’t find any) in this regard is welcome to. **Feynn** , keep in mind I never claimed my car was a miracle of modern science. In fact, given its size and engine, it’s quite a bit of a gas hog. I didn’t want to come across as partial, so I chose my (average, or even below average) Peugeot over, say, the [Volkswagen Lupo TDI](http://www.baileycar.com/diesel-Lupo_html.html), which can get 99 MPG on diesel (!!). My point was mainly that my (average) car will get about the same mileage under the most dire circumstances, as an SUV under completely theoretical brochure circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2002, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/50 "2002-04-27T00:24:01Z")
Damn, I thought this thread was about _hypothetical_ Europeans; I was going to triumphantly announce that no, they’re real; I’ve seen them in real life (I’ve got photographs to prove it too). Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Jurhael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Jurhael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurhael)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2002, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/51 "2002-04-27T01:23:14Z")
“But judging by what I’ve seen on the roads in Italy or Greece, it could be the reverse over there.” AHAHAHAHAH!!! Hell! They still use busses that must have came from the early 1900’s! Also, those little trucks with three wheels! Not used that often though. Hehe… As for cars, there’s pretty much a mixture there, but most cars I’ve seen in Greece are generally pretty small, be they old or new. “So it comes down to this, besides the higher consumption SUV’s people so love to bash, could it be older cars, which in the US there’s millions of, causing alot of the inequity?” Could be. It could also be certain trucks and vans. It’s easy to blame one thing(like SUVs), but it’s not one thing that’s the problem. But alas, it’s true that the average American consumes more than the average European. So, while Europe isn’t perfect, they’re not being hypocritical at all in this case. _shrugs_ ---
**Author:** ![Tennessee\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f0a364/32.png) [@Tennessee\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tennessee_Ben)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2002, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534/52 "2002-04-27T02:25:15Z")
Re: sailor’s observation that Americans use 2.6 times as much gasoline as Europeans. In addition to the older car factor, I would suspect that the actual physical size of the countries _has_ to play some part. I mean, according to my copy of _Goode’s World Atlas_, the U.S. comprises 3,787,425 square miles, while Germany comprises a mere 137,822. That’s a differential of… uhhh… well, more than 2.6 I fully realize that the average driver doesn’t drive every square mile of their country every day, but physical size probably impacts at least two things that I can think of: 1. Because of our vast land area, towns (generally) have grown _out_, instead of _upwards_, in the European style. The net effect is that the grocery store that’s a block away in France is two miles away in Tennessee. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but that’s the way it is. Moreover, I would suspect that’s what economics has dictated. In smaller countries, land must be relatively more expensive. Therefore, in most of the U.S., it’s relatively cheaper to build next door than to build taller buildings. (I would guess.) 2. I would imagine that in both Europe and the U.S., OTR trucks consume a big portion of all oil used. In the U.S., there’s simply more distance to cover. That’s got to account for part of the differential. Just some thoughts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-hypocritical-europeans/105534.md?page=2)