# Fucking Republican Hypocrytes on Military records **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 4, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932 "2008-09-04T02:25:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/41 "2008-09-05T16:21:49Z")
Remind me, again - what are the highest elected offices held by Kerry, Gore, and Bob Dole? And what were the noteworthy achievements of George H.W. Bush’s second presidential term? I think we’re arguing two totally separate things - what is right and good and decent and what voters really care about. This being a democracy, we’re stuck with the latter most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/42 "2008-09-05T16:22:46Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Read his own autobiography, _Faith of My Fathers_. I don’t own a copy to cite from, but I clearly recall him retelling his fateful bomb run in which the threat receiver on his Skyhawk alerted him and instead of following procedure by jinking out and returning to line up for another run, he continues on his track, drops his bomb load, and then takes an SA-2 up the pipe. This is hardly atypical, of course; the VA-163 ‘Saints’ squadron had a reputation for ballsy behavior to the point of stupidity (and the losses to show for it), and McCain immediately volunteered for high risk missions even though he lacked experience. One of the unique things about war is that the only way to gain experience is to participate. There were thousands of pilots shot down over North Vietnam, and very few of them were “experienced”. They were sent over, shown a plane, and told to go at it. Even some of the “experienced” pilots, notably a man named Robbie Risner (Korean War ace, on the cover of Time Magazine, longtime POW) were shot down during missions over North Vietnam. Since they had “experience”, are they to maligned for incompetence? Following through on your bomb run is something that pilots do. That’s the job- hit the target. He tried to do his job and paid a terrible price for it. That is hardly something that deserves the implication that he was an incompetent pilot. That meme needs to go away, because it’s simply not true. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/43 "2008-09-05T16:23:28Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Well, in the case of Gore his service was of a fairly modest (though honorable) type. That sort of behavior would have been the right way to go. Gore claimed to have been in a combat zone, ducking gunfire. A number of people allegedly designed to accompany him at various times indicate that he was never in frontline areas and it is highly unlikely he ever heard gunfire except on a training range. This is, of course, about the least of Gore’s self-aggrandizement, though he is hardly alone in puffing up his c.v. to appeal to the masses. The ideal candidate would be a war hero movie star who selflessly promotes some significant but non-controversial charity, doesn’t cheat on his wife, has three golden-haired children, is equally comfortable playing golf or bowling with the Teamsters, never takes a dime from special interests, and is capable of functioning on thirty minutes of sleep a day. So, basically a combination of Audie Murphy, Robert Redford, and Paul Newman, with just a touch of Steve McQueen or Sterling Hayden to give him that maverick edge. Soon, we’ll be able to genetically engineer this and grow it to adulthood in accelerated _in vitro_ conditions and then implant the skills and experience by direct neural interface, and then we can be shed of the whole tiresome business of campaigning, elections, and indeed, democracy. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/44 "2008-09-05T16:29:25Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Following through on your bomb run is something that pilots do. That’s the job- hit the target. He tried to do his job and paid a terrible price for it. That is hardly something that deserves the implication that he was an incompetent pilot. That meme needs to go away, because it’s simply not true. Even if it was true, I think many people would decide that being punished for it by the North Vietnamese might be plenty enough - perhaps we don’t need to pile on. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/45 "2008-09-05T16:47:07Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > If you have accepted a certain behavior on the part of one party, then your argument against that behavior by a second party can logically be called into question. At the very least, you have to explain why the two situations are different. > > Take the first version above, and re-word it in terms of the Sarah Palin has no experience argument: > > “Democrats say that selecting a VP with little experience is wrong under all circumstances, but they supported the selection of John Edwards for VP; they are either being inconsistent, or they believe that under some circumstances selecting a VP with little experience is justified.” > > What people are trying to ask you is…in what circumstances is it justified? Why was it justified in one case, but not the other? Or was it wrong then, too? > > Another point, which I made in a GD thread but that I don’t think you responded to, is that some are trying to make the point that the Republicans are perhaps being held up to a standard that doesn’t exist. If example after example can be given of VPs who didn’t have much experience, and even Presidents who didn’t have much experience, then why is the standard being changed now, with this candidate? The reason it is different is that the Republicans have been repeating over and over that it’s important that the president have lots and lots of “experience.” Granted, they have made that argument about the president, not the VP, but I think it’s relevant to the VP, especially with a 72 year old nominee with a history of cancer. Therefore, the picking of Sarah Palin, and the subsequent worshiping of the ground she walks on by the prostrate masses, is hypocritical. If Kerry had gone on and on and on about how electing the person with the most experience was hugely important, then his pick of Edwards would have been more questionable. So if you want to make the point that the Republicans are being held to a standard that doesn’t exist, I reply that the standard does exist, _because the Republicans have made it the standard._ If your argument is based solely upon the difference between making the claim for a president, and making the same claim for the VP, then I will not argue with that, because it is technically correct, although it seems a bit nit-picky to me considering how close the VP is to becoming president, especially in McCain’s case, and I always thought the most important factor in selecting a VP was to make sure things would be OK if the worst ever happened. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/46 "2008-09-05T16:54:35Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > The reason it is different is that the Republicans have been repeating over and over that it’s important that the president have lots and lots of “experience.” Granted, they have made that argument about the president, not the VP, but I think it’s relevant to the VP, especially with a 72 year old nominee with a history of cancer. Therefore, the picking of Sarah Palin, and the subsequent worshiping of the ground she walks on by the prostrate masses, is hypocritical. If Kerry had gone on and on and on about how electing the person with the most experience was hugely important, then his pick of Edwards would have been more questionable. > > So if you want to make the point that the Republicans are being held to a standard that doesn’t exist, I reply that the standard does exist, _because the Republicans have made it the standard._ If your argument is based solely upon the difference between making the claim for a president, and making the same claim for the VP, then I will not argue with that, because it is technically correct, although it seems a bit nit-picky to me considering how close the VP is to becoming president, especially in McCain’s case, and I always thought the most important factor in selecting a VP was to make sure things would be OK if the worst ever happened. First of all, the Republicans can’t change a standard that has been established through history. Second of all, the difference between Pres and VP may be small in your perception, but history tells us that typically the two positions are NOT held to the same standard in terms of experience. But my point isn’t necessarily to argue this particular issue, since it’s been gone around and around in so many other threads, but more to point out when and why it’s legitimate to make a “you too” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/47 "2008-09-05T16:55:14Z")
Cuts both ways, though, doesn’t it. Because I don’t think anyone can argue with a straight face that Joe Biden is an agent of change. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/48 "2008-09-05T16:58:06Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Cuts both ways, though, doesn’t it. Because I don’t think anyone can argue with a straight face that Joe Biden is an agent of change. Boy Howdy. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/49 "2008-09-05T17:04:45Z")
Imagine an alternate universe where McCain was horrified at the idea of bombing innocent people into a pile of pink bits and was against the whole war. Instead of being drafted he stood up and said he wouldn’t be a part of it. He was instead jailed for five years. Decades later supporters would point to this act of sacrifice and call him a hero for putting his strong anti-war view above his personal comfort. Haha! Good one, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/50 "2008-09-05T17:12:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Got a link to support this claim? > > Following Palin’s admission that she had not paid much attention to the situation in Iraq, I saw some Republican spin doctors try to change the subject by making a big deal that her state is “closest to Russia” and that she was “Commander of the National Guard.” I have then seen several respones from the Democrat spin doctors noting that she has not actually “commanded” the ANG to do anything aside from some routine search and rescue or injured person transportation roles that really were not authorized at the level of the governor. > I have not yet seen Obama or Biden actually participate in those claims and counterclaims. She’s the Commander-in-Chief of the Alaska National Guard, but that’s not a military position and does not qualify anyone’s resume for a tick-mark of “military.” The commander of the Alaska National Guard is a two-star general: [Major General Craig E. Campbell](http://www.ak-prepared.com/dmva/biographies/campbell.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/51 "2008-09-05T18:17:10Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Following through on your bomb run is something that pilots do. That’s the job- hit the target. He tried to do his job and paid a terrible price for it. That is hardly something that deserves the implication that he was an incompetent pilot. That meme needs to go away, because it’s simply not true. By McCain’s own admission, he stayed on run rather than follow procedure and evade. This resulted in the loss of a multimillion dollar aircraft, a trained pilot, and a (modest) security compromise. I don’t mean to imply that he was incompetent as a pilot (although he was very clearly inexperienced in comparison to more seasoned pilots) but even by his story he was headstrong and disregarded standard procedure, and for an end result that was hardly worth the cost, both personal and to his service, i.e. a bad decision. And this is being promoted as his superior experience in fighting wars? Personally I think this has very little bearing one way or another regarding his effectiveness as a potential chief executive; I would much rather hear about his experience and impressions from working on the Armed Services Committee rather than having him trot out again as a show pony war hero. But when he or his boosters toss this out as such an example he’s opening himself up to criticism or a “pile on”. I’d have far more respect for him if he’d emulate Coriolanus and insist on speaking about issues rather than riding the War Hero Express. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/52 "2008-09-06T12:34:56Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Well, lots of us were saying that Kerry’s heroism had little to do with his character and positions today. And keep in mind that I was taking the claims of the Swift Boaters individually - I didn’t support those guys across the board. > > Similarly, Bill Clinton beat Medal of Honor recipient Bob Kerrey pretty handily in the 1992 primaries, and he beat Bush and Dole in general elections. Those men were both decorated WWII veterans. > > My first post was meant to illustrate that candidates will tend to run on their strengths and will try to mitigate their weaknesses - while somehow neutralizing the strength of an opponent. There is considerable evidence, too, that the American public is savvy enough to separate a war record from other issues. > > If anyone can find proof otherwise, I’d love to see it - but frankly, this should be plain as day to anyone. If the American public is savvy enough I wonder why both parties tend to use this when the opportunity arises. It’s an emotional appeal and supposedly some indicator of character. I basically agree with you that our history of presidents shows it’s not that important a gauge,but surely the republicans are relying on it pretty heavily in this election. McCain’s a war hero who sacrificed for his country and Obama has radical friends. I’ve heard too many people repeat that to think they’re all that savvy. Party loyalty makes us all justify too much. apart from that , it’s still not the point of this thread. How military records affect voting is irrelevant to the hypocrisy I pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/53 "2008-09-06T14:01:31Z")
McCain is not a war hero. He was nearly half a century ago. He has moved on hasn’t he. ? Or Is that all he will ever be. ? I judge him on what he does now and he lies about his relationships with lobbyists. He is deeply embedded with lobbyists in his campaign. They want us to ignore Keating 5 because it was so long ago. His prisoner time was much farther back than that. Too selective for me. What about his serial dating and carousing when he was married? Is that too long ago. But it does go to character. The biggest threat to marriage is not gay marriage but divorce. The repubs pile them up pretty good. Go through the list of repub contenders. They show little respect for marriage vows while chastising everybody else. The repubs swiftboated McCains military service when Bush was running against him. it was shameful. That is who they are. Rove and his peeps are still in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/54 "2008-09-06T15:08:09Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > McCain is not a war hero. He was nearly half a century ago. He has moved on hasn’t he. ? Or Is that all he will ever be. ? > I judge him on what he does now and he lies about his relationships with lobbyists. He is deeply embedded with lobbyists in his campaign. > They want us to ignore Keating 5 because it was so long ago. His prisoner time was much farther back than that. Too selective for me. > What about his serial dating and carousing when he was married? Is that too long ago. But it does go to character. The biggest threat to marriage is not gay marriage but divorce. The repubs pile them up pretty good. Go through the list of repub contenders. They show little respect for marriage vows while chastising everybody else. > The repubs swiftboated McCains military service when Bush was running against him. it was shameful. That is who they are. Rove and his peeps are still in charge. Cutting through the usual crap I see mention of the Keating Five. If you actually trouble yourself to do any sort of research you’ll find that McCain and Glenn should not have been included in that group. McCain played it straight in that investigation, and ultimately he got a light slap on the wrist, criticized for “poor judgment” only because the Senate Ethics Committee had to say something after discovering that they weren’t involved. So yeah, you can ignore the Keating Five. There’s nothing noteworthy about it except that he didn’t do anything wrong. If you want to attack his character about his divorce, have at it. That can’t be all you have on him, is it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/55 "2008-09-06T15:19:11Z")
Which McCain? The principled maverick, or the Pubbie sock-puppet? The one who firmly opposed the Bush Christmas party for the rich, or the one who wants to extend it? The pro-choice McCain, or the stern protector of embryos? The rough-handed man of the people, or the pampered rich guy? The guy who stood up to the televangelist scum, or the guy genuflecting and smooching their lower cheeks? Can you be more specific? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/56 "2008-09-06T15:47:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The pro-choice McCain, or the stern protector of embryos? Funny - I can’t see where McCain has ever been pro-choice. Do you have a cite that he ever was? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/57 "2008-09-06T16:06:01Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Funny - I can’t see where McCain has ever been pro-choice. Do you have a cite that he ever was? > [@](#): > > …In an August 19 interview with the San Francisco Chronicle, McCain said: “I’d love to see a point where it is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even-the long-term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations.” … > **[News Archives](https://www.findarticles.com/news/)** > > Explore the News Articles featuring Technology, Business, Entertainment, and Science & Health topics. Access reports, insights, and stories. > [@](#): > > …Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) appeared to soften his position on making abortion illegal in separate interviews in recent days, drawing criticism from social conservatives and some of his opponents for the Republican presidential nomination… [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/mccain082499.htm](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/mccain082499.htm) More? Google. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/58 "2008-09-06T16:07:25Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Funny - I can’t see where McCain has ever been pro-choice. Do you have a cite that he ever was? He voted to confirm Ruth Bader Ginsberg. To any “respectable,” black-and-white, good-vs.-evil, anti-baby-holocaust Republican, that should be tantamount to high treason. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/59 "2008-09-06T17:49:49Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Cutting through the usual crap I see mention of the Keating Five. If you actually trouble yourself to do any sort of research you’ll find that McCain and Glenn should not have been included in that group. McCain played it straight in that investigation, and ultimately he got a light slap on the wrist, criticized for “poor judgment” only because the Senate Ethics Committee had to say something after discovering that they weren’t involved. > > So yeah, you can ignore the Keating Five. There’s nothing noteworthy about it except that he didn’t do anything wrong. > > If you want to attack his character about his divorce, have at it. That can’t be all you have on him, is it? Bullshit he was the most culpable. he used the guys jet and vacationed with him. He was in Keating’s pocket long before he tried to return the favor. None of the 5 were deeper than McCain. He just bailed a little quicker. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932/60 "2008-09-06T17:53:15Z")
[http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1989-11-29/news/mccain-the-most-reprehensible-of-the-keating-five/1](http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1989-11-29/news/mccain-the-most-reprehensible-of-the-keating-five/1) A little article about McCain the maverick as he grafted along. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fucking-republican-hypocrytes-on-military-records/461932.md?page=4)