[QUOTE=catsix]
I’m going to take this to mean that if someone asks, while cuffed and in the back seat of your cruiser, ‘Why are you arresting me?’ you would say something like ‘You are being arrested for possession of marijuana.’ not ‘Shut up or I’ll taser you again.’
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that would be safe to assume. 
[QUOTE=catsix]
<snip>Fun fact about electricity is that while many people have survived shocks much, much more severe than a taser, the reality is that there is no absolute line when it comes to a lethal level of current. Even a defibrillator, designed to save lives, stops the heart in order to bring it out of fibrillation.
I think the tasers should be done away with, not just because they are over used by bullies with badges, but because electricity is too damned dangerous to use on a person unless it is a last-ditch effort to save his life.<snip>
[/QUOTE]
The electricity delivered by a defibrillator has no comparison to that delivered by a taser. An adult is going to be defibrillated at either 200, 300, or 360 Joules. Kids are defibrillated at 2-4 J/kg. From here, a taser delivers either 0.07 J or 0.5 J, depending on the model.
From our training on tasers, this is my understanding as well.
The problem is that although lower Amperes are not usually fatal, there’s no way to predict beforehand what path the electricity will take, nor what it will run into on that path. Every time you shock someone, there’s a risk of damage. A 2 millisecond shock on a doorknob that’s very localized is obviously a lot less risky than grabbing the terminals of your car battery, but not even the makers of tasers are able to say that they are a non-lethal device.
Knowing what I do about electricity, I’m well aware that the actual current delivered by a taser is small, but is enough to cause involuntary muscle contractions which means it’s having some effect on the nerves. It’s also, at that time, an unknown as to whether it has affected other muscles like the heart or diaphragm.
I’d rather have my arm broken.
I bet your training was prepared by the company that makes and markets tasers.
Saying that it couldn’t be the taser because you would ‘expect it to happen quickly’ doesn’t mean anything. Where’s the scientific basis for the expectation that if it is not immediate, it’s unrelated? A taser induced arrhythmia that gets picked up on an EKG can appear to be no big deal and lead to cardiac arrest and death later.
[QUOTE=catsix]
I bet your training was prepared by the company that makes and markets tasers.
Saying that it couldn’t be the taser because you would ‘expect it to happen quickly’ doesn’t mean anything. Where’s the scientific basis for the expectation that if it is not immediate, it’s unrelated? A taser induced arrhythmia that gets picked up on an EKG can appear to be no big deal and lead to cardiac arrest and death later.
[/QUOTE]
Nope. Our taser training was jointly prepared by our medical director (an ER physician), our clinical director (a paramedic), and a police sergeant. There was a large study done on police cadets who were tased as part of their training, and they could find no differences in pre-taser & post-taser EKGs and lab blood tests. I’ll try to get the cite next time I work. But, if there’s no measurable difference between these groups pre- and post-taser, it would seem there must be another factor in play.
Also, our protocol is that anyone who’s tased is taken to the hospital on a cardiac monitor. ANY dysrhythmia seen post-taser would be considered very serious by our medics and the ER staff.
How about this one?
Here we have one in Ohio, where a pregnant woman was tasered in the neck by an officer who threw her to the ground. Granted she might have been acting wildly, but seriously, After he had her on the ground he should have put the cuffs on. And guess what? The guy is still on the force.
Being a cop must be tough. I imagine, but I think a lot of the younger officers are taking out their aggressions in a negative way. Why did he have to taser the woman on the ground? He was on top of her, right in the position that he needed to be in to handcuff her.
As far as what Thalion says about it, I would hope that he only uses it when he’s sure that there’s likely to be violence.
And yes, I know a knife and a club are both lethal weapons. It’s a sliding scale, right? Why oh why do people feel the need to nitpick every single point to death? The argument there is that An assailant with a knife doesn’t need to be shot, because it’s very hard to kill someone with a knife from 10 feet away. Unless he’s a ninja. Even more so with a club. The only time you should need a gun is when the other guy has one or is presumed to or…yeah you get the idea right? When is a taser not needed? When people are resisting non-violently. That’s what you call refusing to cooperate. Nobody should be tasered for that.
For example. The douchebag at the John Kerry speech. Did he really need to get tased? They outnumbered him by at least 3 if I remember. Just manhandle his ass.
And Thalion, Why not use a club when you are possibly threatened with nothing more than an unarmed man? Seriously…A nice knock to the gut will have him doubled over and cooperating within no time.
I just feel like cops these days are running around with itchy taser fingers. It’s something that has it’s use, but I’m afraid it’s not from keeping cops from having to risk anything at all. It’s a risky job, and if you enjoy it only for the power then there’s a problem. If you outlawed tasers by cops, you’d have just as many people on the police force. And they’d all be saying, “Gee it sure was nice when we could taser first and ask questions later…” And everyone would agree, except normal people who wind up getting tasered for no goddamned good reason. Unless you’re severely outmatched, I don’t see why you should get to taser people if they seem threatening.
Ever try to use social engineering? I know it sounds crazy but it works. I used to work in a busy bar where there would be roughly 300 people on a busy night. We had no bouncers. I had to kick people out on numerous occasions. How did I do it? I’m not physically impressive, I just told them firmly that they had to leave and then came around and escorted them out. I’ve know how it feels about being pissed of by drunk assholes. I had to deal with it every fucking night. Only when I took out my aggression on them it was verbally, and not physically. So instead they’d think, “That bartender was an asshole” instead of “That cop is a fascist” But I can understand the temptation, I really do.
But yeah, it’s a good thing that this is getting a lot of publicity. If the public disagrees, then laws will get passed, otherwise things’ll stay the same.
[QUOTE=catsix]
I bet your training was prepared by the company that makes and markets tasers.
[/quote]
I don’t think Taser trains people. However, that IS something they say and it’s one of their selling points. When the Polish man in the airport died, as far as I know, their full comment was ‘You can see on the video that he’s still moving after they stop tasering him, so the shock obviously isn’t what killed him.’ While I know little about electricity or physiology, I found that unpersuasive. [Okay, they probably also said “Taser has never had to pay damages in a product liability lawsuit.”]
As I said earlier - and again, with my lack of knowledge, I could be wrong here - isn’t it possible that shocking someone who is relatively calm and knows it’s coming could produce different results that shocking someone who is worked up because he’s being arrested, or on drugs, or both?
The Utah Highway patrol has concluded:
Also,
[QUOTE=Marley23]
As I said earlier - and again, with my lack of knowledge, I could be wrong here - isn’t it possible that shocking someone who is relatively calm and knows it’s coming could produce different results that shocking someone who is worked up because he’s being arrested, or on drugs, or both?
[/QUOTE]
It’s possible. Drugs (including alcohol) certainly seem to be a contributing factor in a lot of the taser-related deaths we’ve seen. The consensus among our local docs is that excited delirium plays a large role in these deaths. I’m aware it’s a somewhat controversial diagnosis nationally (Here’s an NPR article that addresses the controversy), however, it’s well accepted in the EMS community and among ER doctors here. It also fits with my experience with these patients.
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
<snip>Being a cop must be tough. I imagine, but I think a lot of the younger officers are taking out their aggressions in a negative way. Why did he have to taser the woman on the ground? He was on top of her, right in the position that he needed to be in to handcuff her. <snip>
[/QUOTE]
But then what? Merely handcuffing the person doesn’t end the situation. If the person calms down in the cuffs, great! But if they don’t, there’s still not a safe way (for the person or the police) to get them into the police car and take them to jail.
To share a recent experience I had, we went on a call for a combative person. On our arrival, there were 6 police officers restraining a guy on the ground. The guy was handcuffed and still fighting like crazy. He required multiple doses of different sedative medications before he could be safely restrained to our stretcher and transported to the hospital. Now, I’ll happily admit that this is a better option than tasing someone. However, if the person is too combative for medications to be administered, or the behavior poses a threat to the police or others, than unfortunately the person probably needs to be tased.
A physical takedown in a case like this would be much more dangerous not only to the police, but also to the person involved. Obviously, firearms would pose a graver risk to the person as well.
Again, I don’t think tasers are a panacea, and I do agree that they are too frequently misused. However, I think these issues are more related too poor training and poor hiring by law enforcement agencies than to an inherent problem with tasers
[QUOTE=Duke of Rat]
So what should the cop do? He told the guy to not walk away, the guy walked away, anyway.
[/QUOTE]
No, he didn’t tell the guy that. He told the guy to turn around. Which he did.
And so the guy walks away. So what? The guy got his ticket.
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
The argument there is that An assailant with a knife doesn’t need to be shot, because it’s very hard to kill someone with a knife from 10 feet away. Unless he’s a ninja.
[/quote]
Actually, there are a ton of studies (and my personal experience) that a person with a knife in their hand can cross at least 21 feet and be on an officer before the officer can draw a weapon. If someone has a knife in his hand, I have a gun in mine.
I once had a defensive tactic instructor who had four black belts in different martial arts and ran a chain of martial arts schools. This guy was sudden death in all directions. And he said he would NEVER try to fight a person who had a knife. No matter how good you are, you’re sure to get cut. One unlucky slice during a fight and you’re crippled or dead. I won’t take that chance.
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
And Thalion, Why not use a club when you are possibly threatened with nothing more than an unarmed man? Seriously…A nice knock to the gut will have him doubled over and cooperating within no time.
[/quote]
Because a baton is far more likely to cause an injury than the taser. “A nice knock to the gut” can result in broken ribs or a lacerated liver. A miss while trying to strike during a fight and you’ve nailed his testicles or his head or his throat. With the taser, the subject freezes up, goes to the ground and can be cuffed with very little chance of any injuries at all.
I realize that this isn’t zero chance, nor is there zero chance that the subject will die. But if you compare the thousands of times a week the taser is used (including training) to the tiny numbers of problems, I believe it is still a very effective tool.
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
If you outlawed tasers by cops, you’d have just as many people on the police force. And they’d all be saying, “Gee it sure was nice when we could taser first and ask questions later…”
[/quote]
No, they would be saying, “Gee, it sure was nice when we didn’t have to get into fights all the time.”
I don’t know how much training should really count. Presumably, in training (and cop studies) the things are used on some of the strongest, most healthy men and women in town. People who are strung out or high on adrenaline may react differently.
Not to say that your experience is wrong, Thalion, just that it seems like there would be a difference.
You know what? Go fuck yourself if you don’t want to get into a fight…Why did you become a cop anyway? I bet you get a satisfaction out of that shit.
Yes I’m fucking angry, because well, wouldn’t you know it? ANOTHER tasering video has shown up on the internet…A guy got pulled over by a cop and got tasered because he didn’t like the way the officer was yelling at him…
http://www.statesman.com/news/mplayer/other/32386
Take them out of officers hands, because there are too damn many of them that are too fucking stupid to know when and when not to use them. This guy here is a class act piece of shit, and I’m not afraid to say it.
I’m getting a bit fucking tired of seeing my country turn into a fucking police state here. This guy pulls a guy over in Austin and treats him like shit. The guy might not have been the nicest in the world. But guess what? That’s the cops fucking job is to not get angry when not respected.
So, should this guy have gotten tasered? Notice how the cop handled himself. Hands on the taser as soon as possible.
And yes, it IS torture. It’s torture because people are fucking deathly afraid of getting electrocuted. Why is electrocution a torture method? Because it’s fucking scary as hell.
Look, if you can invent some kind of weapon that renders someone unconscious without anything like electrocution being involved then that’s fine with me, but this shit has officially gotten out of control.
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
You know what? Go fuck yourself if you don’t want to get into a fight…Why did you become a cop anyway?
[/QUOTE]
So, you think people who want to be cops should be people who want to get into fights. Wanna think about that for a moment?
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
Yes I’m fucking angry, because well, wouldn’t you know it? ANOTHER tasering video has shown up on the internet…A guy got pulled over by a cop and got tasered because he didn’t like the way the officer was yelling at him…
[/QUOTE]
You’re an idiot. The cop was yelling because of the traffic noise and the driver’s slow compliance with the license-and-registration request. Then the driver took offense for no good reason, refused to comply and then things got somewhat ugly.
My sympathy’s with the cop. Why don’t you become one and show them how to do the job properly?
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
You’re an idiot. The cop was yelling because of the traffic noise and the driver’s slow compliance with the license-and-registration request. Then the driver took offense for no good reason, refused to comply and then things got somewhat ugly.
My sympathy’s with the cop. Why don’t you become one and show them how to do the job properly?
[/QUOTE]
No that’s bullshit. The cop escalated it for no good reason. Do you think he fucking pulls out everyone and tasers them because they are upset? Do you know how many people go nuts when a cop pulls them over. It happens a lot. This cop was simply having a bad day so decided to let his anger get the best of him. Unfortunately he decided to take it out on a guy going slightly over the speed limit on a drive with his girlfriend/wife. Was it honestly NECESSARY to use that amount of force? Why did he make the guy get out?
And Q.E.D. I don’t think cops should want to get into fights, no. But I don’t think that they should be averse to it either. I think they should view it as a last-resort thing. Jobs aren’t always fun.
He tasered an unarmed man for arguing with him.
You know what? Police aren’t above the law. At least they shouldn’t be. Being a police officer doesn’t give you the right to taser someone who is disrespecting you. But hey, we all know the types of people that it attracts right? It’s the quickest and easiest path to arbitrary power in this country for a lot of people that have a chip on their shoulder. Why not give them a non-lethal torture weapon to go around and terrorize people with. I’m sure they weren’t the type that liked to torture small animals as children by any means…
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
This cop was simply having a bad day
[/quote]
The tasered driver said the cop was having a bad day, but that doesn’t prove anything. When a cop asks for license and insurance, give him the damn license and insurance. From the dialogue, I think it’s clear the driver was refusing becuase he didn’t like the cop’s attitude. Well, that’s a fuckin’ shame, pal, but cough up the documents anyway.
Honestly, I don’t know and you don’t know and even the cop didn’t know, because none of us are psychic and can exactly predict how much force is necessary. This isn’t some nice tidy physics problem involving Newtons and masses and coefficients of friction and the answers in the back pages of the textbook.
I stand by my earlier assessment. Idiot.
Just so you know, I don’t give a shit that you think I’m an idiot.
By the way, The Austin PD seemed to think it was a mistake too.
It’s assholes like him that can’t be trusted, and if we can’t keep the assholes out of the system, then we need to limit the damage they can do.
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
Just so you know, I don’t give a shit that you think I’m an idiot.
[/quote]
Well, if you did, you wouldn’t be an idiot - you’d be someone seeking to improve themselves by expanding their knowledge.
The Acting Chief gave the officer a slap on the wrist (after the department’s Internal Affairs determined that no punishment was required) and the whole thing is a PR exercise meant to salve the feelings of idiots like yourself and the apparently easily-impressed Editorial Board on statesman.com.
Evidently the APD feels he can be trusted, since he’s back on duty.
Congratulations Bryan,
You’ve won the SDMB!
Love, Merk…