# Fuckity Fuck - McCain's Going to Win **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 4, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834 "2008-08-04T19:06:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/201 "2008-08-07T03:31:07Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] No, no, of course not. But it’s an interesting sidetrack. (I think.) So, is there any actual _evidence_ that the current taxes on either corporate profits or personal capital gains are driving investments to other options than the stock market? [/QUOTE] Luckily this is the pit, so I don’t need no steenkin’ cites! But I will look, since I find the discussion interesting. (goes away) A QUICK search at my favorite site (NBER) finds this little bit. However, I am halfway through a bottle of Cab and losing my ability for decent congnitive thought processes (assuming I ever had them): > **[The Reporter](https://www.nber.org/reporter)** > [@](#): > > Our results, based on a large sample of equity mutual funds between 1993 and 2001, suggest a clear relationship between tax burdens and inflows. Because our analysis focused on the aggregate flows into different mutual funds, our findings only show that some investors appear to be sensitive to taxes. They cannot calibrate the fraction of taxable investors who are tax-conscious, nor distinguish tax-conscious from tax-oblivious investors. There is also an interesting bit that looked at the tax relief on dividends and how it impacted foreign investment \_ the foreign investment separated depending on tax treaties with the US: > **[Tax Effects on Foreign Portfolio Investment](https://www.nber.org/digest/jul08/tax-effects-foreign-portfolio-investment)** > [@](#): > > Desai and Dharmapala say their results suggest that taxes can play a large role in shaping international portfolio choices. The results, moreover, have implications for tax policies aimed at corporate tax integration, which has been widely supported by economists as a means of reducing distortions to firm payout and financing decisions. If dividend relief is not fully extended to foreign dividends, the researchers surmise, corporate tax integration may cause significant distortions in international portfolios resulting in welfare losses. Such effects, say Desai and Dharmapala, could be considerable. So I would continue to argue that investors DO react in a rational fashion, and alter their investment decisions when tax policy has a measurable impact on their potential returns. Which brings us back to realizing that if we go down the \*\*Dio \*\* hole and outlaw corporations, or simply crank up the taxes on the returns from corporate investment - we will reduce the amount of investment in those same corporations. Reduce the investment, and you will hurt job growth, cats will start living with dogs, and we will all be begging for loose change on the street corner. Now, back to my wine. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/202 "2008-08-07T04:15:41Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] So if I take the taxed income from my job and open a small business I should be exempt from paying taxes on the income generated by the small business [/QUOTE] Still kinda hoping Dave will swing back through and answer this one… ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/203 "2008-08-07T04:20:27Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] If you want a raving socialist, we’ll nominate Che Guevara next time. Obama has mild socialist tendencies. [/QUOTE] I think the Dems should give up on moderation & just nominate cranks from now on. Crankery wins, can’t you understand that? Seriously, if you can’t appear more a left-wing extremist than Kucinich & Nader, stop wasting our time! I mean, come on! As successful as uncompromising, radicalized crankery has been for the right, & the Dems keep nominating reasonable, conservative centrist compromiser types. It’s abominably stupid & blind! ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/204 "2008-08-07T04:25:32Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] McCain: “Well, we need off-shore drilling.” Obama: “I’m against but I’m also going to be for it when we develop a plan.” Translation: McCain tells the truth, Obama is soooo kewt & cuddly! Also full of shit. [/QUOTE] Obama would support it as a part of a compromise. I realize it’s a concept that hasn’t gotten much exposure in the past 8 years, so it’s understandable if people are confused by it. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/205 "2008-08-07T12:13:03Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] I find it bizarre that you think, in a thread about American politics, I was not talking about America. And even more bizarre that you call my post - a response to your post which was a distraction - a distraction. [/QUOTE] It doesn’t matter what country you were talking about: you have no evidence that America is different from anywhere else. Furthermore, you are now adopting an absolutist postion (only an _absolutely_ level playing field requires an authoritarian government) because that is what you need to retreat to, to avoid being wrong. Given that an absolutely level playing field is impossible, your proposition is unfalsifiable, unscientific and essentially meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/206 "2008-08-07T14:16:06Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Still kinda hoping Dave will swing back through and answer this one… [/QUOTE] Since we’re talking about corporations it would be an incorporated small business, but the same rules apply: Assuming you pay yourself a salary, that salary is taxed just like the income from your “real” job. If you issue stock and pay a dividend or sell that stock at a profit later, then no (seems a little far fetched scenario, I’m not aware of many one man operations that do this, and I work with small business every day). Unincorporated small business is a different situation, say 1 guy selling widgets out of his garage, but now you’re making apples to oranges comparisons, I’m not sure how I think his tax liability should be handled relates to capital gains taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/207 "2008-08-07T14:44:57Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] I think the Dems should give up on moderation & just nominate cranks from now on. Crankery wins, can’t you understand that? Seriously, if you can’t appear more a left-wing extremist than Kucinich & Nader, stop wasting our time! I mean, come on! As successful as uncompromising, radicalized crankery has been for the right, & the Dems keep nominating reasonable, conservative centrist compromiser types. It’s abominably stupid & blind! [/QUOTE] Actually, they probably should. No matter who the Democratic candidate is, the Republican spin machine will paint him or her (okay, him) as an extreme leftist, just waiting for the chance to nationalize our industries and send all our pregnant women off to the birthing creches. Think about it. Every Democratic candidate in my lifetime has been a middle-of-the-road centrist, playing up his good Christian values and so on, regardless of their views on arugula, and notwithstanding the American Conservative Union’s ratings. (ACU ratings are nominally on a 1-100 scale, but in reality the ratings go from 50-100 for Republicans and 1-20 for Democrats). ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/208 "2008-08-07T15:20:07Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] It doesn’t matter what country you were talking about: you have no evidence that America is different from anywhere else. Furthermore, you are now adopting an absolutist postion (only an _absolutely_ level playing field requires an authoritarian government) because that is what you need to retreat to, to avoid being wrong. Given that an absolutely level playing field is impossible, your proposition is unfalsifiable, unscientific and essentially meaningless. [/QUOTE] Ok, whatever dude. I couldn’t help but notice that you had to truncate my post to make this work. I’m not going to keep arguing with someone who is basically having both sides of the argument with himself. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/209 "2008-08-07T15:34:31Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] I’m not going to keep arguing with someone who is basically having both sides of the argument with himself. [/QUOTE] Heh. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/210 "2008-08-07T15:49:22Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] (ACU ratings are nominally on a 1-100 scale, but in reality the ratings go from 50-100 for Republicans and 1-20 for Democrats). [/QUOTE] In 2007, Mary Landrieu, a Democrat, got a 40. Ben Nelson, also a Democrat, got a 32. Susan Collins got a 36, and Olympia Snowe got a 28. They’re both Republicans. Two other Republican senators scored in the 40s. They use the same votes to figure out the ratings for everyone. Republicans are just more likely than Democrats to vote the “right” way on issues the ACU cares about. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/211 "2008-08-07T16:10:21Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Since we’re talking about corporations it would be an incorporated small business, but the same rules apply: Assuming you pay yourself a salary, that salary is taxed just like the income from your “real” job. If you issue stock and pay a dividend or sell that stock at a profit later, then no (seems a little far fetched scenario, I’m not aware of many one man operations that do this, and I work with small business every day). [/QUOTE] So just so that I am understanding you correctly, let’s say I make $100,000 in profit as an incorporated small business. I pay myself a salary of $50,000. The $50,000 that I pay myself you’re saying should be taxed as income but the $50,000 retained by the corporation should be tax free? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/212 "2008-08-08T03:06:14Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] There is no nuance. It has nothing to do with being a red-stater. It has everything to do with it being **Clothahump**. [/QUOTE] Which is synonymous with being correct. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/213 "2008-08-08T03:10:07Z")
[QUOTE=Clothahump] Which is synonymous with being correct. [/QUOTE] You’re going to believe what you want to believe, old tortoise, but I’m fairly certain that the general opinion is going to land on my side of the fence on the subject of your general accuracy and correctness. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/214 "2008-08-08T03:35:22Z")
[QUOTE=Clothahump] Which is synonymous with being correct. [/QUOTE] I got a giggle out of that one. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/215 "2008-08-08T12:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] I got a giggle out of that one. [/QUOTE] Hey, man, his post is his “OH MY GOD! IT’S ALL A CONSPIRACY TO RAISE THE PRICE OF TIN FOIL AND MAKE US ALL THEIR SLAVES! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!” -Joe ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/216 "2008-08-08T16:05:23Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Since we’re talking about corporations it would be an incorporated small business, but the same rules apply: Assuming you pay yourself a salary, that salary is taxed just like the income from your “real” job. If you issue stock and pay a dividend or sell that stock at a profit later, then no (seems a little far fetched scenario, I’m not aware of many one man operations that do this, and I work with small business every day). Unincorporated small business is a different situation, say 1 guy selling widgets out of his garage, but now you’re making apples to oranges comparisons, I’m not sure how I think his tax liability should be handled relates to capital gains taxes. [/QUOTE] It really depends on whether a corporation files as [S Corporation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_corporation) or not. In most cases, the S corp will pay less taxes. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/217 "2008-08-09T04:50:35Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > The red states get massive subsidies from the govt in the form of oil depletion allowances, farm subsidies, tobacco subsidies, highway project pork, levies, delivering mail to bumfuck Idaho for the same price as intra-Manhattan mail, military bases, and on and on. Sounds like Illinois and Michigan. > [@DanBlather](#): > > I’m an economic liberal and I think that the role of govt is to provide a level playing field so that people get what they deserve based on their abilities and hard work, rather than the position in life they were born in. > [@DanBlather](#): > > If CEO pay is determined in an arms-length manner and is tied in some way to performance, then I have no problem. So you want to be able to pick and choose how level the playing field is? Everyone gets to play by the same rules…except CEOs. What about CFOs? Presidents? VPs? CIOs? Do they get to get what they deserve based on their abilities and hard work? Or is should their pay be based on some formula too? How far down do you go? > [@DanBlather](#): > > A majority of Montanans voted for Bush. About 30% of Montanans votes for Bush in 2004, around 27% in 2000. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/218 "2008-08-09T16:03:47Z")
The sad fact is that bigotry is alive and well in the US. This election will show how rampant they are. My family has been involved in voter registration for the last 3 months. The number of people who feel free to say" I aint voting for no nigger " is scary. I asked the organization to track the numbers but they decided not to. I would like to know how hard it really is to elect a black prez. I think that is why the election appears closer than it should be. Between voter suppression, bad voting machines and bigotry ,I think Obama has a hard hill to climb. ---
**Author:** ![muttrox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a8b319/32.png) [@muttrox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muttrox)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/219 "2008-08-10T14:18:25Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] My family has been involved in voter registration for the last 3 months. The number of people who feel free to say" I aint voting for no nigger " is scary. [/QUOTE] If they really feel free to say it, it would be captured in standard polling. It’s the ones who believe it but won’t say it that are the tricky part to measure. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834/220 "2008-08-10T15:14:03Z")
We are a racist society. This election will show how badly racist we are. Although many are grasping at other excuses to justify not voting for the nigger. But the fact remains a lot wont vote for Obama because of his color. My polling is limited to Dearborn/Detroit area. When you get down south it will be worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckity-fuck-mccains-going-to-win/458834.md?page=12)