# Fuckyouverymuch, Verizon, and your broken promises **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370 "2012-06-16T22:13:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/21 "2012-06-18T14:35:49Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > You left out the money that goes to lobbyists and outright bribes for legislation and regulations to keep the gravy train rolling. They’ve been squatting on their infrastructure for years without making any real effort to improve it (let alone expand it into areas with lower population density), while raising prices and reducing service. The only time they upgrade something is when it interferes with the cash flow or falls apart in a way that pisses off huge numbers of people at once. > > The telecom industry is rotten, riddled with corrupt, shortsighted scum. They’re like the RIAA/MPAA, desperately fighting progress because they see it as a threat to their cash cows. And the real problem there is the word ‘shortsighted’. When an industry like telecom becomes infected with the need to post quarterly profit _every quarter_, BAD things happen. Why? Because telecom needs UPGRADES. EXPENSIVE upgrades. I understand why the big telecoms don’t improve their outside lines. Landlines are dying, at 8% a year. They’re a losing proposition, long-run. _Wireless_ data, though, will soon be the new king. Why? Right now I pay about $37 a month for internet from Comcast. It’s good internet, fairly fast. However, when Sprint’s 4G data comes to my town, finally, I’ll be able to get similar data speeds for much less. Why? Because then I can just tether a 4G smartphone, and use that as my internet connection. Sprint’s 4G is unlimited data for a flat fee, and that fact is going to _force_ AT&T and Verizon to start offering the same thing, sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/22 "2012-06-18T14:37:27Z")
I’ll admit Sprint and T-Mobile aren’t exactly making money hand-over-fist, unlike AT&T and Verizon. However, that doesn’t mean they’re going out of business anytime soon. Sprint got the iPhone last year, and their unlimited 4G network is growing. _That’s_ going to be a game-changer. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/23 "2012-06-18T16:35:17Z")
You’re overlooking something fairly basic, **al27052** , in that the wireless spectrum does not have unlimited capacity. Unlike wired, where you can always (at expense and time, yes) add more cables to handle increased demand, the wireless spectrum has limits. That’s why the auction a couple of years back when some bandwidths were freed up was such a big deal. Technology improvements will probably alleviate that for a while, but sooner or later you’re going to run into a limit on the amount of data you can cram into one bandwidth. At that point, I’d expect prices to skyrocket. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/24 "2012-06-18T16:49:24Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > This reminds me of when Chase started charging monthly fees for their “free checking for life!” accounts. To be fair, it was started by another bank, which they ate, but the second they went back on that promise I closed my account with them. I don’t expect ginormous corporations to be acting in my best interest, but I do expect them to keep their word, even if it was stupid to promise it in the first place. I had a credit card with them for ten years. When they started charging an annual fee, I dropped them and went with a card with no fee. They’ve been trying to get me back for the last 18 years. Heck with them. I pay off my balance every month which, according to the credit card companies, makes me a “deadbeat”. They get their percentage of each sale and should be happy with that. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/25 "2012-06-18T17:03:05Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I’ll admit Sprint and T-Mobile aren’t exactly making money hand-over-fist, unlike AT&T and Verizon. However, that doesn’t mean they’re going out of business anytime soon. Sprint got the iPhone last year, and their unlimited 4G network is growing. _That’s_ going to be a game-changer. A game changer into oblivion. Not only is Sprint “not… making money hand-over-fist”, the fact is that they’ve _rarely_ been profitable to any sustainable degree for the past decade. The last profitable quarter they had was Q3, 2007 where they earned $133 million - since then, the company has racked up an impressive series of losses: (Yearly totals): 2007: -30 billion 2008: -3 billion 2009: -2.5 billion 2010: -3.5 billion 2011: -2.9 billion iPhone isn’t going to be a game changer… if the iPhone was important to Sprint customers, they would have left the service over the past 3-4 years. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/26 "2012-06-18T18:40:39Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > A game changer into oblivion. > > Not only is Sprint “not… making money hand-over-fist”, the fact is that they’ve _rarely_ been profitable to any sustainable degree for the past decade. The last profitable quarter they had was Q3, 2007 where they earned $133 million - since then, the company has racked up an impressive series of losses: > > (Yearly totals): > > 2007: -30 billion > 2008: -3 billion > 2009: -2.5 billion > 2010: -3.5 billion > 2011: -2.9 billion > > iPhone isn’t going to be a game changer… if the iPhone was important to Sprint customers, they would have left the service over the past 3-4 years. I didn’t say the iPhone was going to be the game-changer…I said _unlimited 4G_ was going to be. Reading comprehension. You can do it. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/27 "2012-06-18T18:46:20Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > You’re overlooking something fairly basic, **al27052** , in that the wireless spectrum does not have unlimited capacity. Unlike wired, where you can always (at expense and time, yes) add more cables to handle increased demand, the wireless spectrum has limits. That’s why the auction a couple of years back when some bandwidths were freed up was such a big deal. Technology improvements will probably alleviate that for a while, but sooner or later you’re going to run into a limit on the amount of data you can cram into one bandwidth. At that point, I’d expect prices to skyrocket. OK, you need to do some research. First, Dish Network is in negotations to use some of the wireless spectrum they purchased last year to make a wireless network. Dunno if it’ll get FCC approval, but at least it’s on the table, so to speak. Second, the wireless spectrum that Lightsquared bought is still available to any buyer with the money. Perhaps even Lightsquared will acquire MORE spectrum and actually try again to get FCC approval. Third, AT&T and Verizon are just sitting on the old analog TV spectrum they bought several years ago. It’s completely unused. At some point (probably 10 years or maybe more) they are going to be forced, one way or another, to actually DO something with it. Finally, the military has way more spectrum than it actually needs. Sooner or later someone’s going to introduce a bill to carve off some choice bits of _that_ spectrum as well. Are you not familiar with Moore’s Law? You do know that the cost of data transmission, both wired and wireless, follow a similar trend as Moore’s Law does with processor size and cost-of-a-million-calculations, right? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/28 "2012-06-18T18:49:54Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > iPhone isn’t going to be a game changer… if the iPhone was important to Sprint customers, they would have left the service over the past 3-4 years. And it isn’t about keeping Sprint customers, it’s about stealing Verizon’s and AT&T’s. I went to Sprint less than two months after they got the iPhone. I actually had an AT&T iPhone and a Verizon family plan, because I needed the iPhone for work, and had to get one before Verizon got it. I COULD have gotten a Verizon iPhone, but refused because their prices are so high. So AT&T and Verizon BOTH lost me on the same day. But the iPhone isn’t the game changer. Unlimited 4G is. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/29 "2012-06-18T19:12:59Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I didn’t say the iPhone was going to be the game-changer…I said _unlimited 4G_ was going to be. > > Reading comprehension. You can do it. Technically, you said iPhone and unlimited 4g. > [@You](#): > > Sprint got the iPhone last year, and their unlimited 4G network is growing. That’s going to be a game-changer. Writing what you mean: You can do it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/30 "2012-06-18T19:15:39Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Sprint’s 4G is unlimited data for a flat fee, and that fact is going to _force_ AT&T and Verizon to start offering the same thing, sooner or later. Noooo… the fact of **$41.5 billion in losses** that Sprint has generated since 2007 will _force_ Sprint to go to limited data plans. Why would ATT and Verizon go with a losing business model? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/31 "2012-06-19T00:12:23Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > OK, you need to do some research. > > First, Dish Network is in negotations to use some of the wireless spectrum they purchased last year to make a wireless network. Dunno if it’ll get FCC approval, but at least it’s on the table, so to speak. > > Second, the wireless spectrum that Lightsquared bought is still available to any buyer with the money. Perhaps even Lightsquared will acquire MORE spectrum and actually try again to get FCC approval. > > Third, AT&T and Verizon are just sitting on the old analog TV spectrum they bought several years ago. It’s completely unused. At some point (probably 10 years or maybe more) they are going to be forced, one way or another, to actually DO something with it. > > Finally, the military has way more spectrum than it actually needs. Sooner or later someone’s going to introduce a bill to carve off some choice bits of _that_ spectrum as well. > > Are you not familiar with Moore’s Law? You do know that the cost of data transmission, both wired and wireless, follow a similar trend as Moore’s Law does with processor size and cost-of-a-million-calculations, right? I used to work in the telco industry. Research it was what I did. I did not say that there wasn’t unused spectrum out there. I said that _the wireless spectrum did not have an unlimited capacity and that unlike wired cable, you can’t add to it_. There will come a time when the entire spectrum is used, and at that point I’d expect prices to go up. I make no predictions of when; I’ve been out of the industry long enough that I no longer track things like data demand and advances in transmission systems. I’m just saying that, eventually, they will not be able to cram any more data into it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/32 "2012-06-19T01:07:37Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > I used to work in the telco industry. Research it was what I did. > > I did not say that there wasn’t unused spectrum out there. I said that _the wireless spectrum did not have an unlimited capacity and that unlike wired cable, you can’t add to it_. There will come a time when the entire spectrum is used, and at that point I’d expect prices to go up. I make no predictions of when; I’ve been out of the industry long enough that I no longer track things like data demand and advances in transmission systems. I’m just saying that, eventually, they will not be able to cram any more data into it. It seems arguable that we’re no where near the point we run out of bandwidth, further it seems arguable that the unused spectrum ought to be used for the public interest before gauging customers. They are using a public resource, intended for the public interest. Not the interest of keeping it away from competitors. If a company whines about bandwidth, setting on scads of unused spectrum, the spectrum ought to be taken away and given to someone who will use it for the public. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/33 "2012-06-19T01:08:48Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > I did not say that there wasn’t unused spectrum out there. I said that _the wireless spectrum did not have an unlimited capacity and that unlike wired cable, you can’t add to it_.. Actually you can add to wireless capacity sort of the same way you add to wired capacity. Make each cell smaller but add more cells and you have the ability to reuse that ‘limited spectrum’ in theory a unlimited number of times. So wireless capacity is really unlimited. Now we don’t want a cell transmitter every 50 feet, but we do have the ability to increase wireless capacity vastly without adding spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/34 "2012-06-19T01:12:10Z")
And just for fun, for old times’ sake, I did a bit of research. It seems that as recently as this February, CNN Money is reporting on the [spectrum crunch](http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/21/technology/spectrum_crunch/index.htm), and predictions are that prices will go up, quality will go down, and there will be less competition, and its expected within the next few years. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/35 "2012-06-19T01:47:39Z")
So I can keep my unlimited data if I upgrade before the 28th. Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/36 "2012-06-19T03:01:51Z")
> [@Sudden\_Kestrel](#): > > We’ve never had a cell phone, but we were thinking we might have to get one soon to prepare for the future in which there are no land lines (it’ll take us that long to read the manual [if it indeed comes with a manual]), but shit like this has made us decide we can live without _any_ type of phone service just fine, TYVM, just to avoid making these bastards any richer. I don’t know why you all put up with their shenanigans. It’s kind of odd really, but when I determine which “shenanigans” I will put up with, nowhere in that calculation do I reference whether the “bastards” are getting “richer”. My calculations typically involve a comparison of the prices and attributes of the products/services offered by the different companies. Then I choose the one that fits my needs the best. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/37 "2012-06-19T03:37:53Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Noooo… the fact of **$41.5 billion in losses** that Sprint has generated since 2007 will _force_ Sprint to go to limited data plans. > > Why would ATT and Verizon go with a losing business model? 😕 Because people will start using Sprint’s 4G wireless as their primary home internet. At that point, Sprint will actually start to _make money again_. Beating the wireline boys is a sweet, sweet bit of revenge. AT&T and Verizon _both_ have heavily invested in infrastructure for Uverse/DSL/FiOS. When Sprint starts taking their customer base away things going to get a lot better for customers, IMO. And it’s coming. As soon as 4G is available in my town, and I can get an iPhone that compatible with Sprint’s 4G (hopefully the very next iPhone), I’m ending my Comcast internet service. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/38 "2012-06-19T03:43:59Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > And just for fun, for old times’ sake, I did a bit of research. It seems that as recently as this February, CNN Money is reporting on the [spectrum crunch](http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/21/technology/spectrum_crunch/index.htm), and predictions are that prices will go up, quality will go down, and there will be less competition, and its expected within the next few years. I don’t buy it. People have been predicting the end of Moore’s Law for the last 40+ years. It will probably keep going for at LEAST another 8-10 years, and quite probably longer than that. The entire article misses the fact that AT&T and Verizon are just _sitting_ on the old TV spectrum they own. Why? They don’t want any competition. Guess what? Sooner or later, even though Senator OldAsHeck thinks the internet is going to steal his car and kidnap his dog, market pressures are going to force the issue. People want their wireless data. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/39 "2012-06-19T03:59:13Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Verizon and Sprint use the exact same cell network for phone calls. Data is different, but you don’t have smartphones, so it’s probably not going to affect you. > > If you’re going to switch, make sure you get well-reviewed phones. Some phones get terrible signal quality, some get great quality. There’s also the issue of loudness of the phone, durability, and reliability. You…You…You mean Verizon _lied_ to me??? I can get the same coverage with Sprint? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370/40 "2012-06-19T04:27:13Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I’d like to be able to drop Verizon and we only have two regular old cell phones. Which cost us over $65 a month. But I travel all over by car and seriously need to have the security of being able to call and receive calls anywhere. When the other companies have that sort of coverage, I can switch - but then, they will probably cost as much as Verizon! Have you considered [Page Plus Cellular](http://www.pagepluscellular.com)? They are a reseller of Verizon Wireless. So if you sign up with them, you will stay on the Verizon network. Actually, you’ll do a little better since Page Plus does allow roaming on other systems (for an additional charge) if you are out of range of Verizon. As long as your phone was not orginally a Verizon prepaid phone, you can switch any Verizon phone easily. If all you want is talk and text, their [standard plan](http://www.pagepluscellular.com/Plans/Standard%20Plan.aspx) is: ``` 100 minutes for $10 416 minutes for $25 1,000 minutes for $50 2,000 minutes for $80 ``` Texts are 5 cents. You have to recharge every 120 days (1 year for the $80 plans) and unused minutes roll over if you do. There is a 50 cent per month maintenance fee. If you use a lot of minutes and texts they have various monthly plans for heavy users, too. And they also have data plans, but they aren’t great if you are a big time user of data. And all taxes are included in the price. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuckyouverymuch-verizon-and-your-broken-promises/625370.md?page=3)