# Fuel from Micro-organisms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104 "2011-01-18T19:08:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/41 "2011-01-19T21:37:58Z")
> [@](#): > > If the tubes are made of clear acrylic and filled with water containing the algae, would they cast that much of a shadow? If they’re not casting much of a shadow, then they’re even less efficient. Any light that gets through the algae is light that wasn’t used to make fuel. Good point about putting this setup on the side of a building that’s there anyway, though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/42 "2011-01-19T23:27:02Z")
An [Economist article](http://www.economist.com/node/17358802) on the subject. Some companies use bacteria, some yeast. Most algal based companies have been dead ends so far, unable to scale up cost effectively. The problem for all is that the cost curves have not yet crossed - the cost of using oil derived fuel (both actual and a cost for the carbon) needs to get higher and the cost of producing these fuels need to drop. Over the next few years that is expected to happen, but not yet. Meanwhile companies like Amyris have gone up in value, doubling since its Sept low, by signing contracts to produce specialty products for other industries (flavors and fragrences). Electric vehicles are wonderful things (I believe) but they are not a solution for all of our vehicular needs. We need a liquid fuel that does not substantially add carbon to the environment like gas and diesel do. These drop-in fuels will meet that bill. Or, as the article points out, the energy crop can be used to generate electricity. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/43 "2011-01-19T23:35:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Electric vehicles are wonderful things (I believe) but they are not a solution for all of our vehicular needs. We need a liquid fuel that does not substantially add carbon to the environment like gas and diesel do. These drop-in fuels will meet that bill. . I don’t think ethanol is a “drop-in” replacement for regular fuel, in the sense that a standard 2011 car can use it without modification. Currently they mix it with conventional gasoline. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/44 "2011-01-19T23:40:22Z")
Which is the point of the article, which you may want to click on before commenting on. > [@](#): > > Instead of ethanol, they plan to make hydrocarbons, molecules chemically much more similar to those that already power planes, trains and automobiles. These will, they say, be “drop-in” fuels, any quantity of which can be put into the appropriate fuel tanks and pipelines with no fuss whatsoever. For that reason alone, they are worth more than ethanol. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/45 "2011-01-20T22:04:07Z")
Of course, even with ethanol, you can mix it in in very high proportions, and it wouldn’t be all that hard to build cars that run on it pure. It doesn’t have to be a 100% solution to the problem to be a big help. Ignoring for the moment, of course, the question of whether ethanol (or any other bio-fuel) can be produced economically. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/46 "2011-01-20T22:09:28Z")
Don’t they have cars in Brazil (IIRC) that run on either pure or a high percentage mix of ethanol (from cane sugar, again IIRC). This doesn’t seem to be the same technology though, since they are saying they will produce the fuels directly. Definitely the real question is can it be done economically and if it is even possible to scale it up to meet demand. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/47 "2011-01-20T23:05:24Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I was very interested in using algae to produce bio-diesel at one time, until I read a simple calculation about the maximum amount of energy that could be produced per square meter by any process based on photosynthesis. Once you did the math. then most of the forecasts of energy production from algae or any other biofuel turned out to not be reality based. I meant to ask you for a cite for the energy per square meter problem regarding growing algae. I’d like to read up on it. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/48 "2011-01-20T23:08:52Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Don’t they have cars in Brazil (IIRC) that run on either pure or a high percentage mix of ethanol (from cane sugar, again IIRC). Cold weather starting is among the main problems for ethanol. (the other big one is materials compatibility) Brazil’s latitude means they don’t have to bother with any of the cold start workarounds. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/49 "2011-01-20T23:15:46Z")
Yep, I agree…the US (or most other countries) aren’t well suited to the Brazilian model for ethanol. Even there they have to subsidize, IIRC. I was really just responding to Chronos saying ‘…and it wouldn’t be all that hard to build cars that run on it pure’ by pointing out that, at least from memory the Brazilians have already developed such a beast (I think there are even US manufacturers who build cars for export to Brazil that meet the bill, though again this is all from memory). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/50 "2011-01-21T03:05:27Z")
The paradigm that will allow some commercial exploitation while research and development go on, and maximize the benefit to the world is: A site where fossil fuel is being used to generate power currently, with existing CO[sub]2[/sub] sequestering technology at least under consideration. Most likely candidates are those with at least decent percentages of average insolation. The beginnings are modest, with the output in fuel being used on site to generate power, with a modest increase in profitability, and a modest decrease in total carbon footprint. (The reuse of CO[sub]2[/sub] will have some benefit) As scale increases, the integrated system can gain benefit from additional technologies. (Such as the methane burning technique using nanotechnology to isolate CO[sub]2[/sub] as it is produced) While no single improvement is enough to immediately replace the oil industry, it can allow the technologies to mature in a business as well as engineering environment. As emissions standards evolve, the plan will attract better investment in the power industry itself. No, it won’t happen fast. But it can happen. Tris ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/51 "2011-01-21T03:12:56Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Magiver](#): > > I meant to ask you for a cite for the energy per square meter problem regarding growing algae. I’d like to read up on it. I cut and pasted this from something I posted in the physicsforum in 2009: Biodiesel production—current state of the art and challenges J Ind Microbiol Biotechnol (2008) 35:421–430 DOI 10.1007/s10295-008-0312-2 [http://www.smccd.edu/accounts/case/biol230/algae/SIM\_algae.pdf](http://www.smccd.edu/accounts/case/biol230/algae/SIM_algae.pdf) If you look at the calculations on pages 426-7, the authors come up with a much lower limit. > [@](#): > > In the United States, the average daily incident solar > energy (across the entire spectrum) reaching the earth’s > surface ranges from 12,000 to 22,000 kJ/m2 (varying primarily > with latitude). If the maximum photosynthetic > efficiency is 11.6%, then the maximum conversion to > chemical energy is around 1,400–2,550 kJ/m2/day, or > 3.8 9 1012 J/acre-year in the sunniest parts of the country. > Assuming the heating value of biodiesel to be 0.137 GJ/ > gal, the maximum possible biodiesel production in the > sunniest part of the United States works out to be > approximately 28,000 gal/acre-year, assuming 100% conversion > of algae biomass to biodiesel, which is infeasible. Based on this I would suspect a practical limit for algae oil of less than 10,000 gallons an acre. Even within these limits the authors point out that that algae has far more potiental than other biofuels, such as corn or soy. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/52 "2011-01-21T17:09:22Z")
[FWIW](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/01/muradel-20110121.html#more) > [@](#): > > The focus of this new company is to bring to commercial reality a large-scale business that leverages the natural advantages of the Australian environment, producing algae for renewable fuel and co-products from the biomass. > > Our research team has proven that it is possible to grow large quantities of algae for commercial biofuel purposes. The establishment of Muradel Pty Ltd is the next major step in Australia becoming a world leader in biofuel production. I wish them luck. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/53 "2011-01-22T04:27:08Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Based on this I would suspect a practical limit for algae oil of less than 10,000 gallons an acre. Even within these limits the authors point out that that algae has far more potiental than other biofuels, such as corn or soy. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104/54 "2011-01-23T14:06:56Z")
Australia does seem to be a location that has as good of a chance of making this work as anywhere. And there actually is now a different algal biofuel company [trading](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/01/asx-20110123.html#more) on their exchange - for anyone interested in that kind of stuff. > [@](#): > > Algae.Tec Limited, an Australian biofuels company with what it calls a highly-efficient algae growth and harvesting system (the McConchie-Stroud System), recently listed on the Australian Stock Exchange (ASX). Algae.Tec CEO Roger Stroud said Algae.Tec will be the first algae company to list on a main board stock exchange in the world, and one of the few cleantech companies to list in Australia. > > The McConchie-Stroud System is designed to produce valuable sustainable bio-fuels, including biodiesel and bio-jet fuels, said Stroud. The technology can also capture CO2 emissions from power stations and manufacturing facilities which feed into the algae growth system. > > Algae.Tec has two MOUs (memoranda of understanding) to deploy the technology in China and Australia. Additionally, the company has an MOU with Leighton Contractors for engineering and project management expertise. The first demonstration plant is planned for The Manildra Group’s Nowra facility in NSW (New South Wales, Australia). > > The McConchie-Stroud System uses low-maintenance technologies and an efficient solar system to produce algae in one-tenth of the land surface as compared to the current pond method for producing algae, the company says. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fuel-from-micro-organisms/568104.md?page=2)