# Fukkin Facist Florida Firearm Fanatics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 7, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066 "2011-05-07T14:37:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/661 "2014-08-02T02:11:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree. Any statistics you show me will me lumping my specific circumstances in with lots of people who don’t approach the issue of gun ownership with nearly the same kind of attention and analysis as I do. > > It’s like telling me that, statistically, I have a 0.3% chance of contracting an STD in my lifetime, because that’s the average rate for men in the country. But I have a completely monogamous sexual relationship with my wife, who in turn is completely monogamous with me. That doesn’t mean my chance is literally zero, of course – I could be captured and ravished by rapacious, but unfortunately diseased, Amazons. But the numbers for me are not meaningfully calculated by reference to the entire adult population. > > I bet the “statistics” you want to show me include injuries to family members in homes where guns are not stored in gun safes, with gun locks. Don’t they? If so, why would you use those numbers to infer anything about me? I think he is probably referring to the kellerman study (and its progeny) that concludes that there is a correlation between owning a gun and being murdered. So people with guns are 3 times more likely to be murdered than people without guns. Of course it doesn’t really tell you how much of that increase is due to the fact that people who are likely to be murdered are more likely to go out and get a gun. The original Kellerman study also revealed that you are even more likely to be murdered if you are single, if you live alone, and especially if if you do drugs. I bet people with a criminal history are more likely to be murdered as well. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/662 "2014-08-02T02:15:26Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m in the category of people who won’t have a gun accident. Gun accidents only happen to the people in the category of people who are going to have a gun accident. > > Also, there are four simple rules. Because of these rules, gun accidents never happen. You are also in the category of people who will not be able to defend themselves with a gun. ~700 accidental gun deaths/year. over 100,000 defensive gun uses/year. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/663 "2014-08-02T02:17:12Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > It amazes me how if you don’t like your pharmacist for \*not \*doing his job, you can just suck it up and go find yourself another pharmacist, but if you don’t like your doctor for \*doing \*his job, there’s got to be a fucking law crafted to make him do what you want. Have you not been following the thread? I think there is one person in this thread that thinks this law is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/664 "2014-08-02T02:23:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, if I rephrase, put in “pediatricians” rather than “pharmacists”, you’ll have an answer? I’m guessing not, but you are welcome to astonish me… I said this in another thread but their experience guides them. A lot of them do rotations in the ER and they reach the conclusion that gunshot wounds are bad. They tend to live in neighborhoods where you really don’t need a gun for self defense (and they tend to come from these neighborhoods as well). Its not hard to see how a doctor might reach the conclusion that guns are bad. that any reduction in the inventory of guns in society is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/665 "2014-08-02T02:26:52Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Yes. That’s exactly what I’m saying. > > :rolleyes: > > I’ve asked you not to do this. Twice. > > If you don’t have anything substantive to add just try not responding. It would be better than making up something silly and attributing it to me. > > You really should stick to the sidelines, tossing out your occasional snarky reply, safe in the knowledge that most people here agree with you. That way you can’t get in much trouble. > > When you actually get engaged in a debate on anything it quickly becomes obvious that you can’t even follow along with the discussion, much less add any meaningful content to it. I kinda of enjoy his snide quips, even when they are directed at me. I’m going to guess he grew up with a lot of older brothers or an abusive father (no offense intended Elucidator). Its the sort of skill that you have to learn early in life. Its like learning a new language, its really hard to do late in life unless you are born with the talent. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/666 "2014-08-02T02:27:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, OK, that isn’t what you are saying? Fair enough! What is? > > You said this, right? This was you, yes? > > Followed by this: > > So, the leadership of the group is anti-gun, but that doesn’t mean the rank and file is? Or does it mean something else? Is there another option? Well, the NRA as an organization is a lot more gun nutty than its membership as whole. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/667 "2014-08-02T02:45:27Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > But what’s the take-away from that… > (1) The most horrifying school shooting in history (because of the age of the kids) happened, while there was a democratic president, and a democratic senate, and STILL nothing ended up happening, proving how unlikely it is that anything will ever happen The gun control folks shot themselves in the foot. They could have had something if they didn’t instinctively reach for one of the stupidest form of gun control in the book. An Assault Weapons Ban. After the assassination of RFK and MLK, LBJ tried to pass a licensing and registration scheme. LBJ was pretty good at counting votes and he pushed things that he could get passed. His push for licensing and registration wasn’t derailed by the gun lobby or the NRA, it was derailed by the delay caused by gun control who didn’t think that licensing and registration were enough. [http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/183804521.html](http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/183804521.html) > [@](#): > > (2) A bunch of people talked REALLY SERIOUSLY about gun control for a while before giving up, so that means we must NEVER RELAX OUR VIGILANCE!!! We shouldn’t relax any more than NARAL or the ACLU relaxes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/668 "2014-08-02T02:56:02Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > You are certainly right about that. At the same time, I’m not 100% convinced that your initial claim, which is that owning a gun makes you, overall, safer, is one that can be statistically supported. > > There would have to be some AWFULLY specific statistics to show that for people with your level of gun care and safety precautions, with family members in the age range of your family members, living in a neighborhood as dangerous as your neighborhood, etc., etc., owning a gun increases their odds of preventing a violent crime more than it either increases the odds of a non-violent crime turning violent, or increases the odds of a tragic accident. > If you have actual statistics backing up your claim, I’d like to see them. Gun accident deaths are fairly rare. ~700/year from over 300 million guns. About a third of the victims are 15-24 and male. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/669 "2014-08-02T03:04:31Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > As usual, it’s the denominator, stupid. How many fucking times until you get this? > > Or would you assert that firearms are more dangerous than anthrax, because far fewer children died from anthrax than firearms? How many households do you think have guns? How many households do you think have pools? I think we discussed this before but here are some cite: > **[Op-ed piece on swimming pools vs. guns as the most dangerous weapon |...](https://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2001/07/27/levittpoolsvsguns)** > > by Steven D. Levitt, Professor of Economics, University of Chicago > \[Editor's note: A version of this piece was published in the Chicago Sun-Times on July 28, 2001 under the title "Pools more dangerous than guns." \] > What's more dangerous: a swimming... [http://www.bluescience.com/swimming-pools/posts/Are-Swimming-Pools-More-Dangerous-Than-Guns/](http://www.bluescience.com/swimming-pools/posts/Are-Swimming-Pools-More-Dangerous-Than-Guns/) [http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Are+guns+more+dangerous+than+pools%3F](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Are+guns+more+dangerous+than+pools%3F) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/670 "2014-08-02T03:20:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Still vanishingly small odds. I’m still better off investing in the stock market rather than guns. Tangent but… I’m not sure about that. Guns hold their value very well and their value has increased enough over the last ten years that a basket of investment grade guns probably outperformed the S&P 500. Some guns did exceptionally well. Pretty much all the cheap historical guns have increased significantly in value. Pretty much any smith & wesson or Colt revolver has done pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/671 "2014-08-02T03:31:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You’re saying that Kellermann reported a significance test of the parameter value of having a gun in the home compared to living alone? Please provide the statistic associated with this test. I am familiar with the paper but recall no such comparison. I can’t access the Kellerman study right now but here is a review by someone who seems to be on the gun control side of the fence. "The above chart is an example of “univariate analysis,” or a straight comparison between the two groups. But this analysis is incomplete. There are many variables that simultaneously contribute to the odds of a person being murdered: drug use, domestic violence, criminal history, level of protection, etc. A person who answers yes to the question “Does anyone in the house use illicit drugs?” might be nine times more likely to be murdered, but that doesn’t eliminate all the other variables that also contribute to the total murder risk. To isolate the risk attributed to drug use alone, researchers need to perform “multivariate analysis,” which zeroes out all these other factors. That way, we can learn how drug use in and of itself raises the murder risk. Kellermann’s team found only six variables that were strong enough to be included in the final model. They found that the following variables were associated with the following increased murder risks:" Among the variables were: house member arrested 2.5 **GUNS!!!.. pew! pew! pew!.. in the house** 2.7 living alone 3.7 household member hit or hurt in a fight in the home 3.4 renting your home 4.4 illicit drug use 5.7 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/672 "2014-08-02T03:40:22Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > It is against the law for doctors to take action that will result in a persons death. It’s been proven in the courts doctors can’t even help people who want to die die. > > If you change the law to make fetuses people, doctors can not take action that would harm/or kill a fetus, ie abortion. They left no method in which the doctor could take action with the intended result of a fetuses death. Thus the law is very straightforward no abortions, no exceptions. > > Can you explain your logic to me? If a fetus is a person, how can a doctor perform a procedure in which the intended result is the fetuses death and not be committing a crime? Self defense? That fetus was coming right at me and I feared for my life? Lets say you are climbing a mountain and your partner loses their grip and you try to haul them up but now you are losing YOUR grip and both of you are about to fall. Can you cut him loose? And if you are going to interpret the law in the conexts of what court say, let me introduce you to [Roe v. Wade - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade) “Roe’s central holding that a person has a right to abortion until viability” ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/673 "2014-08-02T05:29:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Lets say you are climbing a mountain and your partner loses their grip and you try to haul them up but now you are losing YOUR grip and both of you are about to fall. Can you cut him loose? I as a person whose life is at risk can cut my partner lose in defense of my life, I may still be convicted of murder by doing so depending on how a jury interprets the facts. A third party, even if they are a mountaineering expert who understands the consequences of not cutting the rope would certainly be putting their life in legal jeopardy by cutting the rope on my behalf. Doctors in the course of their work can not choose to kill someone. Fetal person hood puts doctors in a poor legal position. Fetal person hood laws conflict with Roe v Wade. If that conflict rises to the supreme court nothing stops the court from striking the older precident. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/674 "2014-08-02T06:29:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I kinda of enjoy his snide quips, even when they are directed at me. I’m going to guess he grew up with a lot of older brothers or an abusive father (no offense intended Elucidator). Its the sort of skill that you have to learn early in life. Its like learning a new language, its really hard to do late in life unless you are born with the talent. Nope, abandoned by wolves, raised by Texans. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/675 "2014-08-02T12:59:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I can’t access the Kellerman study right now but here is a review by someone who seems to be on the gun control side of the fence. > > "The above chart is an example of “univariate analysis,” or a straight comparison between the two groups. But this analysis is incomplete. There are many variables that simultaneously contribute to the odds of a person being murdered: drug use, domestic violence, criminal history, level of protection, etc. A person who answers yes to the question “Does anyone in the house use illicit drugs?” might be nine times more likely to be murdered, but that doesn’t eliminate all the other variables that also contribute to the total murder risk. To isolate the risk attributed to drug use alone, researchers need to perform “multivariate analysis,” which zeroes out all these other factors. That way, we can learn how drug use in and of itself raises the murder risk. > > Kellermann’s team found only six variables that were strong enough to be included in the final model. They found that the following variables were associated with the following increased murder risks:" > > Among the variables were: > > house member arrested 2.5 > **GUNS!!!.. pew! pew! pew!.. in the house** 2.7 > living alone 3.7 > household member hit or hurt in a fight in the home 3.4 > renting your home 4.4 > illicit drug use 5.7 If you want to say that one predictor is stronger than another in a multivariate model, you have to directly compare them. You have not provided the statistical test of the comparison that I asked for. Otherwise you can say that both living alone and having a gun in the home are associated with a higher likelihood of death. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/676 "2014-08-02T13:06:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How many households do you think have guns? How many households do you think have pools? > > I think we discussed this before but here are some cite: > > [Op-ed piece on swimming pools vs. guns as the most dangerous weapon | ScienceBlogs](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2001/07/27/levittpoolsvsguns/) > [http://www.bluescience.com/swimming-pools/posts/Are-Swimming-Pools-More-Dangerous-Than-Guns/](http://www.bluescience.com/swimming-pools/posts/Are-Swimming-Pools-More-Dangerous-Than-Guns/) > [http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Are+guns+more+dangerous+than+pools%3F](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Are+guns+more+dangerous+than+pools%3F) The number of times that kids go swimming is far far greater than the number of times kids go shooting. Kids between 1 and 4 going swimming is typical. Kids between 1 and 4 going shooting is a sign of stupidity. Swimming is not more dangerous than guns, you disingenuous, stupid fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/677 "2014-08-02T13:14:38Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I as a person whose life is at risk can cut my partner lose in defense of my life, I may still be convicted of murder by doing so depending on how a jury interprets the facts. A third party, even if they are a mountaineering expert who understands the consequences of not cutting the rope would certainly be putting their life in legal jeopardy by cutting the rope on my behalf. Oh for goodness sake, didn’t _anyone_ see _The Eiger Sanction?_ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/678 "2014-08-02T13:16:50Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The number of times that kids go swimming is far far greater than the number of times kids go shooting. The cite he provided offered a ratio comparison, not a raw numbers comparison: > [@](#): > > In 1997 alone (the last year for which data are available), 742 children under the age of 10 drowned in the United States last year alone. Approximately 550 of those drownings — about 75 percent of the total — occurred in residential swimming pools. According to the most recent statistics, there are about six million residential pools, meaning that one young child drowns annually for every 11,000 pools. > > About 175 children under the age of 10 died in 1998 as a result of guns. About two-thirds of those deaths were homicides. There are an estimated 200 million guns in the United States. Doing the math, there is roughly one child killed by guns for every one million guns. > > Thus, on average, if you both own a gun and have a swimming pool in the backyard, the swimming pool is about 100 times more likely to kill a child than the gun is. Moreover, this cite doesn’t depend on times kids “go shooting,” but simply addresses the incidence of kids killed by guns, whether they “go shooting” or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/679 "2014-08-02T13:25:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The question in the doctor case is if the legislature has the power to arbitrairly forbid specific speech by physicians, speech that the doctor and the doctors’ expert panels believe is an appropriate part of their job. > > The distinction that one eliminates the ability of a patient to have a prescribed treatment course and that the other involves the ongoing provision of care is meaningful difference. > > That the legislature has power to regulate professional conduct is not in question. Protecting a patient’s ability to obtain care is within that purview. Arbitrarily declaring that addressing one particular safety issue subject out of a political agenda, declaring that one particular subject of speech that is declared professionally appropriate by expert physician bodies is inappropriate out of that political agenda, should not be in that purview. Well, of course I agree. As I’ve mentioned once or twice, I don’t favor the Florida law. But I also don’t favor any law that purports to require the pharmacist to deliver a medication he believes will end a human life. You’ve identified a distinction between the two and declared that the distinction allows the two to be treated differently. Of course no two situations will be exactly alike, but I don’t agree that the conscience clause eliminates the ability of a patient to have a prescribed treatment course. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/680 "2014-08-02T14:22:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The cite he provided offered a ratio comparison, not a raw numbers comparison: > > Moreover, this cite doesn’t depend on times kids “go shooting,” but simply addresses the incidence of kids killed by guns, whether they “go shooting” or not. The assertion is that pools are more dangerous than guns. Can you honestly say that you would be more worried about fifteen 10 year olds having a pool party than fifteen 10 year olds having a shooting party? Any sane person would not. More kids die in swimming pools BECAUSE MORE KIDS USE SWIMMING POOLS MORE OFTEN. It’s the denominator, stupid. If children used guns at an equal rate that they use swimming pools, the number of kids killed by guns would be vastly greater than the number killed by pools. This is just like the stupid fucks who tried to suggest that it was more dangerous to be driving in California than deployed to military duty in Iraq. How are you people so fucking stupid? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066.md?page=35)