# Fukkin Facist Florida Firearm Fanatics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 7, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066 "2011-05-07T14:37:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/61 "2011-05-07T21:52:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I personally believe all those things are out of line for one reason. You are only there to deal with the situation at hand. When I am sick, I do not want to be harassed, and I do avoid the doctors who do this. > > I can see part of the prescription one being relevant–when you are prescribing the medicine. Giving directions on what to do with the medicine you are prescribing is in your purview. While asking about other medications is okay when making sure there is no reaction to what you prescribe, it is not within your purview to tell me what to do with them. > > I only recognize a doctor’s right to butt into my life in an emergency. My safety and health are not your concern outside of the limited issue for which I am paying you. It’s noble you want to help, but that’s not what I’m paying you for. Do that on your own time, not on the job. > > For example, if I came in with, say, diabetes, it would be relevant to talk to me about my weight, as reducing that that can help treat that situation. If I come in for strep throat, it’s entirely inappropriate. In fact, I reported a doctor who did just that. She did it to enough people that the main doctor fired her for bad bedside manner. > > As for this law–it would be entirely based on whether the doctor was refusing to provide services due to his questions. If not, of course you have a right to ask questions I consider to be rude. If so, sorry. I believe in a right to healthcare. It is an essential service, and you should not be able to just kick people out like a regular business owner. And if the only way to insure you won’t do that is to prevent you from asking the question, then so be it. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean you can tell people about my medical records, either. > > As for the other crap that’s in this thread: no, pharmacists should not be able to refuse prescriptions, and, no, I do not own a gun nor really ever have had an interest in owning one. You’ll note I believe in a right to healthcare–I’m not a conservative in any real sense. The thing is, what we are normally talking about here are “well-baby checkups”, where there isn’t anything particularly wrong, but the doctor is just making sure that everything is going OK with the growth and development of the child, and that the home environment is such that everything will continue to go OK. Most parents want to make sure they are doing things right. Well-baby checkups are usually scheduled about every three months for the first few years of life. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/62 "2011-05-07T21:54:19Z")
**Big T** you are not familiar with “Well care appointments” obviously. Not every pediatric visit is for a sick complaint. This is about preventative care. When we discuss diet and nutrition, normal development and behavior and what is and is not normal, what to expect coming up, sleep habits, and so on. How help your child stay healthy in general. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/63 "2011-05-07T22:06:27Z")
I suspect there is a high correlation between people who are upset when their doctor asks basic questions about their health and people who eat a lot of Cheetos. Also, I find it hard to believe a doctor got fired for asking questions about holistic well-being of her patients. I find it much easier to believe that some guy on the Internet would make that up to enhance a boring anecdote. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/64 "2011-05-07T22:13:56Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > I also see where the doctor is coming from; stories of accidental shootings by children are pretty common these days. Stories may be, because the press creams themselves anytime they get a juicy gun story, but the reality is that while gun ownership is as high as it’s ever been, accidental shootings by children is as low as its ever been. It’s pretty far down the list as far as stuff that kills kids - an order of magnitude lower at least than more common stuff like pools and toxic chemicals. As for the rest of you - you risk alienating reasonable people when you treat the gun issue in such an arrogant, cut-and-dried way and talk about guns rights advocates as if they were as stupid as birthers. Support for gun rights is actually fairly broad based - there’s certainly a strong element of far right people, but there are a whole lot of centrists and even leftist people who advocate gun rights. Now you say “this thread is about a specific bad law, not gun rights in general” but that’s not true - if you read the first few posts in the thread you can clearly see people talking about gun rights advocates as if they all agreed with this bill in lockstep and they were all hard-right retards and such. Your derision alienates people who might otherwise be politically sympathetic to you. Gun control is a losing issue for the democrats exactly because it isn’t something that only offends the hardcore republican base. More than that, it alienates people who are supportive of gun rights but have to be treated like they’re mouth breathing fascist stormtrooper retards for thinking so, like in this thread. It would benefit you, and reasonable and civil discussion, to not treat people who are gun rights advocates like birthers. If you wanted to talk about how dumb a law this was (and it is), that’s fine - but immediately the “oh the retarded gun nuts are at it again, I’m sure they’re all in lockstep on this issue” bullshit came out about a bill that doesn’t even seriously seem like it has a shot at becoming law, and certainly wouldn’t have lockstep support from all the gun rights advocates. Incidentally, I do think the AMA and perhaps other political groups made up of doctors have a hardon for guns, because they’re often hawking bad epidemeological studies to bash gun ownership when it’s really none of their business. Does that extend down to the individual doctors, or is that an artifact of politics? I don’t know. Do pediatricians raise the gun issue in accordance with its relative danger to stuff like pools, car seats, etc, or do they have a special hardon for it? If it’s the latter, people are right to get irritated and admonish the doctor and find a new one if necesary, but of course if it is indeed the role of a pediatrician to ask about non-medically-related dangers in the home (I really have no idea if this is the case), then it’s silly to make a law barring them from it. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/65 "2011-05-07T22:22:43Z")
If accidental shootings are down, it’s because of proactive, preventive action by people like doctors who try to educate gun owners. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/66 "2011-05-07T22:43:38Z")
At least I can be glad that with this law, the kids of these gun nuts will be more likely to be shot and killed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/67 "2011-05-07T23:03:42Z")
I hope you’re joking. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/68 "2011-05-07T23:08:52Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > At least I can be glad that with this law, the kids of these gun nuts will be more likely to be shot and killed. If you’re happy with being an immoral asswipe for being happy about children dying because you dislike their parents then more power to you. Not to rain on your parade of abominable behavior, but people who are all about leaving guns unsecured around their homes are typically not the people who are interested in gun safety in the first place. So their physician speaking to them about it is highly unlikely to have any significant affect, especially on the society-wide level. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/69 "2011-05-07T23:09:57Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > If accidental shootings are down, it’s because of proactive, preventive action by people like doctors who try to educate gun owners. Sure, and people like gun enthusiasts who actually run 99.99% of all the gun safety classes, created all the educational material, and developed various products that make it more easy to secure your firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/70 "2011-05-07T23:13:47Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Martin** this law is not about doctors kicking patients out or somehow forcing patients to listen to a lecture. (If only I could!) It is about criminalizing even asking about guns and gun safety. I know that not listening is one of the biggest complaints I hear people come up with against their physicians, and based on what you’re saying to me in this thread I can see why people talk about it being such a problem. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Oh, I’m not in favor of the law, I was just commenting on how I’d feel about a pediatrician giving me gun safety advice. I wouldn’t be immediately offended or anything, I’d just tell him I don’t need it so don’t bother. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Well, I’m not infringing on anyone’s speech because 1) I’m not the government, 2) I don’t support this law in Florida, 3) I don’t live or vote in Florida. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I do think that if every physician made it a rule that patients had to listen to lectures or not receive medical care, that could create a health care crisis and I **would** be in favor laws preventing that. So while I wouldn’t favor a law that criminalized speech of physicians, I might support a law which made it illegal for a physician to refuse to treat someone just because that person refused to listen to their lectures. I imagine perhaps the licensing authorities on state levels could achieve that with administrative rules instead of legislation, though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/71 "2011-05-07T23:22:07Z")
**SB** , yes, as noted Child Access Prevention to Firearm (CAP) laws have been effective. Florida’s own strict law has cut accidental firearm deaths of children by over 50%. (I know, the NRA wants Eddie Eagle to get the credit.) Also greater awareness of the need for firearm safety pushed across the country (by those who some on the gun rights side characterize as anti-gun for promoting safety measures) has gotten some to keep their weapons more securely stored even in states without CAP laws. Media attention may be exploitive, but it has influenced some gun owners’ behaviors. Maybe even some anticipatory guidance has helped … I have already admitted that in my suburban Chicago area practice I spend little energy on firearm safety issues. I have other issues that I am more fixated on emphasizing. But different communities may be best served with a different emphasis. In rural areas like most of Florida, the 4 deaths per 100,000 under 19 due to firearms are not as likely due to homicide, like the same roughly 4/100,000 are in urban areas. They are [more often due to](http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/25/us-gun-deaths-idUSTRE64O3OY20100525) accidents and suicides, with most-rural areas having 5 times the accidental gun death rate as most-urban areas. It is in precisely those areas that gun safety _should_ rise to hardon levels, because yes it is the pediatrician’s role to advise about risks in the home and community environment, and of course that is where this silly law is going to bar them from doing it. Next they’ll outlaw pediatricians asking about diet, exercise, sunscreen, and keeping pools gates locked. None of our business. After all, how many kids drown every year? **Martin** I don’t think _you_ are listening. I’m bitching about _this law_. The rest is really a hijack from my POV. I know you care only about what you think, but I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/72 "2011-05-07T23:39:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Sure, and people like gun enthusiasts who actually run 99.99% of all the gun safety classes, **created all the educational material** , and developed various products that make it more easy to secure your firearms. Cite (for the bolded). Also, a working definition of “gun enthusiast” that is more refined than “gun owner.” ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/73 "2011-05-07T23:42:27Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > At least I can be glad that with this law, the kids of these gun nuts will be more likely to be shot and killed. The irony here is that when in another thread, you were talking about the OMG EPIDEMIC OF SCHOOL SHOOTINGS KILLING EVERYONE and I said a few over a decade is really a miniscule amount of fluke occurances that don’t require a drastic policy response, you gave me the old “OMG YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT THE CHILDREN WHO DIED OMG OMG OMG” hysterical reaction. I guess dead kids can be good, so long as you don’t like their parents. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/74 "2011-05-07T23:57:09Z")
The NRA does promote some good [gun safety rules](http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp), some aimed for [parents](http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/infoparents.asp) - > [@](#): > > ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use. … Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons. … mechanical locking devices, like the mechanical safeties built into guns, can fail and should not be used as a substitute > [@](#): > > In a home where guns are kept, the degree of safety a child has rests squarely on the child’s parents. … a parent must, in every case, assess the exposure of the firearm and absolutely ensure that it is inaccessible to a child. Why do they want to make pediatricians saying the same thing a crime? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/75 "2011-05-08T00:03:07Z")
**SB** to portray my side of this discussion as represented by those just making stupid comments like **YogSosoth** ’s or even those who wish to, less inappropriately, extrapoloate that “The Right” falsely portray’s healthcare reform as getting in the middle of the doctor patient relationship, yet does it itself in a very direct controlling way here, is a bit disingenuous. I will leave it that I am glad you agree that this is a silly law and are not trying to defend it. Yes, if you don’t like how your doctor advises you, then find a new one. Don’t make it illegal for the doctor to practice that way. Vote with your feet. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/76 "2011-05-08T00:25:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Martin** I don’t think _you_ are listening. I’m bitching about _this law_. The rest is really a hijack from my POV. I know you care only about what you think, but I don’t. Cool, then feel free not to address my posts. This is a free forum and discussions can and do evolve. I said my piece with no expectation of response from anyone. Here’s how I work though, if you’re going to reply to me (and you did) then do not _correct_ me by saying “but this law actually says” when in my previous posts in this very thread it is \*\*abundantly obvious I know exactly what the law in question says. \*\*I do not take kindly to being corrected when my plain text shows I was not in the wrong in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/77 "2011-05-08T00:26:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **SB** to portray my side of this discussion as represented by those just making stupid comments like **YogSosoth** ’s or even those who wish to, less inappropriately, extrapoloate that “The Right” falsely portray’s healthcare reform as getting in the middle of the doctor patient relationship, yet does it itself in a very direct controlling way here, is a bit disingenuous. > > I will leave it that I am glad you agree that this is a silly law and are not trying to defend it. Yes, if you don’t like how your doctor advises you, then find a new one. Don’t make it illegal for the doctor to practice that way. Vote with your feet. I’m nor sure if I’m parsing this correctly, but I do think it exposes a familiar hypocrisy regarding the role of government and its intrusion in our lives, one which the right – scare quoted or not – is content to be completely unreflective on, just as they complain about government while championing government intrusion into our lives when it comes to who you marry, who lives in your uterus, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/78 "2011-05-08T00:26:42Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Cite (for the bolded). > > Also, a working definition of “gun enthusiast” that is more refined than “gun owner.” No. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/79 "2011-05-08T00:27:44Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > I’m nor sure if I’m parsing this correctly, but I do think it exposes a familiar hypocrisy regarding the role of government and its intrusion in our lives, one which the right – scare quoted or not – is content to be completely unreflective on, just as they complain about government while championing government intrusion into our lives when it comes to who you marry, who lives in your uterus, etc. Oh noes, people are hypocrites. We all know only one side of the political spectrum engages in hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066/80 "2011-05-08T00:37:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > … people who are all about leaving guns unsecured around their homes are typically not the people who are interested in gun safety in the first place. So their physician speaking to them about it is highly unlikely to have any significant affect … Actually some pediatric interventions are [evidence based](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16275796) as effective: > [@](#): > > In those households still with guns at follow-up, 50.9% of the intervention group had some type of improvement in safe gun storage compared with 12.3% of the control group (P\<.001). More specifically, 25.0% in the intervention group improved the frequency of locked storage of guns compared with 4.8% of those in the control group (P = .003). Twenty-six percent of the intervention group improved the use of locked storage compared with 3.1% in the control group (P\<.001). And some [not significantly so](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10878144). > [@](#): > > Among households with guns at baseline, there were also no differences between groups in the removal of guns (intervention: 6.7% vs control: 5.7%), but there was a fairly large nonsignificant difference in the proportion who purchased trigger locks (intervention: 8.0% vs control: 2.5%). OTOH[brief community based efforts](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11386952) have some effect. > [@](#): > > At follow-up, of the 82 participants, 63 (77%) (up from 39 [48%]) reported storing their gun(s) in a locked compartment (P =.004), 59 (72%) (up from 0) reported using gun locks (P =.001), 61 (74%) (up from 57 [69%]) reported storing their ammunition locked in a separate location, 59 (72%) (up from 52 [63%]) reported storing their gun(s) unloaded, and 6 (7%) (down from 15 [18%]) reported storing firearms unlocked and loaded. Participants with children were more likely at baseline to store weapons unlocked and loaded (38 [59%] vs 19 [41%]; P =.02) but were more likely after counseling to lock their weapons (29 [58%] vs 14 [44%]) and remove guns from the home (5 [10%] vs 0 [0%]). Not knowing ≠ stupidity. A little information sometimes can be put to good use. As to your other comments, I addressed your points. Excuse me for not only addressing your points. Yes, I know you do not support this idiotic law. I know you know what the law says. Sometimes knowing still = stupidity. And if I understand the rules correctly, I can say this: Hug off. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukkin-facist-florida-firearm-fanatics/581066.md?page=5)