# Fukushima Reactor 1 Core Meltdown **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 12, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716 "2011-05-12T22:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/121 "2011-05-20T07:06:13Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > By the same logic, I can take the BP/Gulf of Mexico Debacle and extrapolate that oil is no longer an option for America. That’s a false analogy. There are materially significant differences in the situation, which I’ll address below, but even then the same logic would be to ban deepwater drilling for oil, not to ban it’s use. It’s not the utilization of the particular product – either electricity or oil – but the production of the product which is at question. > [@](#): > > Except that Deepwater saw greater direct fatalities, probably comparable or greater environmental contamination, and was not kicked off by a massive earth quake. Fortunately, the number of direct fatalities has been low, but the degree of environmental contamination is still unknown, and is ongoing. Critics are charging that there is groundwater contamination and the Japanese government is refusing to allow monitoring for radioactive contamination in the nearby ocean. [Cite](http://www.panorientnews.com/en/news.php?k=933): > [@](#): > > Despite being denied permission to conduct radiation sampling within Japan’s 12 mile territorial waters, the Greenpeace flag ship, the Rainbow Warrior, today began testing for radioactive contamination to the south of the crisis-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear complex, the group said in a statement. This leads directly to my answer for your next statement. > [@](#): > > However, to point out that Tepco and the Japanese government both failed to be sufficiently diligent does not mean that suitable checks and balances cannot be put in place to prevent such failures occurring again. I did not make the change from being pronuclear lightly. I have not called for the end of nuclear power world-wide, but in Japan, as I am most aware of what is happening here in this country. I’ll let someone else take on the rest of the world. The problem that I see, is the question if _suitable checks and balances (could) be put in place to prevent such failures occurring again_. Even now, in the middle of what has become the second worst nuclear accident, and the obfuscation from the government and Tepco are mind boggling. Nothing I’ve seen has gone anywhere to helping restore any trust in either of the institutions. Japanese regulators are traditionally much weaker than in the US, and much closer to the particular industry. They have repeatedly shown an unwillingness to actually take on unsafe practices. In my post above, I quoted an article which showed that Tepco has falsified data for 16 years to avoid repairs. The agency was forced to act when a whistle blower brought it out into the open, but even then the oversight as been criminally lacking. In one of my linked articles, it was charged that the inspection of the Fukushima plants were far too brief for a facility of that complicity. So you have a company with a real history of cheating, and you don’t take sufficient steps to ensure its honesty. If it were simply one incident with really bad luck, then I would not take this stance. It is the ongoing history of the recklessness of the companies, the incompetence of the agencies, the failure of the government to protect its citizens and the environment and now the deliberate withholding of information. We’ve had 40 years to learn how to make things better. To glance up from our cereal bowls and notice that a couple of nuclear accidents were occurring in other places, and to strengthen our own. There have been accidents here, including damage from earthquakes and a processing plant going critical. The response has been to falsify data and screw their eyes shut. If you are married to a serial cheater, at some point you have to throw your hands up in the air and say that their nature isn’t going to change and call it quits. That’s where I’m at. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/122 "2011-05-20T17:10:32Z")
The gulf oil disaster was created by execs who wanted to get the well on line quickly. They were willing to cut safety to get the well making money. How many other wells are out there with safety corners cut in the name of profit? Did the oil regulation agency go out and inspect all the wells? Nuke plant operators have been covering up problems for years. They have no problems lying to congress and the senate. Accidents don’t make them improve safety. It makes them better at covering up. They use their huge lobbying power to stifle regulation and cut back on funding. [http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5477606/gulf\_oil\_spill\_death\_on\_high\_seas\_act.html](http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5477606/gulf_oil_spill_death_on_high_seas_act.html) Why was an act like this passed. Workers more than 3 miles off shore can not sue the operators for wrongful death. This benefits only the oil companies and operators . ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/123 "2011-05-24T12:04:15Z")
TEPCO says that reactors 2 and 3 are in the same melted condition as reactor 1. All the on site containment for the highly contaminated water is full. Water will keep needed to be added to keep these reactors remains from overheating. January is when cold shutdown is hoped to be achieved. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/124 "2011-05-24T14:53:01Z")
Many, many Japanese are openly expressing doubts to what the government is saying and its credibility is shot. In 20+ years I’ve never seen people this openly critical of the government. The Ministry of Education sent a 16 page brochure on nuclear safety (It’s all right, everything is completely safe, now don’t worry your pretty heads) to all day care and kindergartens with instructions to pass out the parents, but ours is refusing to do so. The owner said “Would they tell us if there was something wrong?” The damn brochure doesn’t have a single technical explanation. “Can we drink the water?” “Yes, the water is safe.” etc. But they’ve spent all their “trust capital” and by covering up and not addressing issues, they’ve lost the support of the people. They’ve been cranking out that type of brochure for 40 years, and before there were problems, then people would swallow the idea that nuclear energy was completely, 100% safe. The sad thing is that Tokyo is safe (or at least should be). The amount of radiation reaching Tokyo is low, but because the government is not being open about areas which _do_ have problems, then no one is believing them at all. So what could they have done? But some meat into the brochure. Talk about radioactive iodine, cesium 137, the plutonium and strontium 90, and what levels are and are not harmful to children. But then they would have to own the decision to do nothing about the area northwest of Fukushima, but outside of the evacuation zone which has uncomfortably high levels of fallout. They would also need to study the levels of radioactive particles in the ocean and fish, and ensure that the food is actually safe. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/125 "2011-05-25T10:23:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I do understand you nuke apologists are way over your heads trying to sweep this disaster away. Personally I prefer Nuke Hugger myself. ☹ But it was a nice try at putting yourself on a pedestal. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/126 "2011-05-25T15:09:17Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > can you save your elitist food snobbery for some other thread? You know, I haven’t read this thread in a while, but kiss my lilly white ass. I’m here to learn something and I don’t think an anecdote is totally out of line. And for the record, this shit is very troubling indeed. Thanks Tokyo Player for the on the ground Intel. I was going to abbreviate TP but, hell, that ain’t right. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/127 "2011-05-25T18:49:46Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Personally I prefer Nuke Hugger myself. ☹ > > But it was a nice try at putting yourself on a pedestal. Explain how that makes any sense at all. Nuke apologists pretend it is safe and those who question it are being unfair. What pedestal? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/128 "2011-05-25T19:53:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Explain how that makes any sense at all. Nuke apologists pretend it is safe and those who question it are being unfair. > What pedestal? Labeling everyone that isn’t in lockstep with you an apologist is a tactic to shut off debate. Certainly apologists can and do exist. But simply being of the belief that nuclear energy isn’t the apocalypse does not make one an apologist. Human beings have short memories and little recorded history from a geological stand point. Nothing is safe, not power plants, not cities, not hunk of ground you are occupying at this moment. With time, some cataclysmic event will occur on it. Which one could argue is an even better reason not to build nuke plants. But what that says to me is there is no “safe” anything. Risk reduction is a good and noble cause. Risk elimination is a fallacy and a fools game. ETA I want to thank yourself, Tokyo Player, and Matt for the education and enlightenment regarding this disaster and nuclear power generation in general. It’s a really good thread, much too good for the pit. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/129 "2011-05-26T01:04:37Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Risk reduction is a good and noble cause. Risk elimination is a fallacy and a fools game. QFT, as well as to point out the obvious inverse to this, that perfect safety is also at best an illusion and at worst, a con. You can reduce the likelihood of accidents (if, unlike certain power companies in certain unnamed countries, you actually do your f\*\*\*ng job) and take steps to mitigate the fallout (pun intended) but it’s too expensive to make things 100% or even 99.9% safe all the time in all circumstances. What you can’t do, though, is take reasonable steps, (which I’ll argue were not sufficiently in place in Fukushima), then lead a 40 year PR campaign promising that this is completely, perfectly safe, simply because the really bad hasn’t happened yet. You have to pick your poison. Modern society requires a tremendous amount of power, which doesn’t grow on trees, and there are costs, risks and benefits for each one. Unfortunately, the honest debate on the true costs of the alternatives is not happening. Nuclear energy has some very attractive potential upsides, included reduced carbon-dioxide emissions, (I was a proponent of it until 74 days ago) but the huge “reverse lottery” cost is too high if there isn’t a structure in place for accidents. There isn’t one in Japan, and the structure of the bureaucracy, government and industry, combined with the ineffectiveness of grass root movements in Japanese society has doomed this as an option here. The game has changed. The onus in now on proponents of nuclear power in Asia, Europe and the States to make a new case for this option, and to show how potential events, previously dismissed as unlikely, would not cause the same degree of damage. If Fukushima is this bad, and the Japanese were as prepared as they were (giving credit to where credit is due, there were somethings which were done right, including having contingency plans for immediate evacuation of residents up to 5 km from the plant, allowing for the emergency venting) then god have mercy on what will happen in China when one of their plants go up. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/130 "2011-05-26T05:59:27Z")
A report from Tepco’s on the incident has been released. I’ve been reading Japanese sources but there is information in English as well. This page shows a calculated time line for [the meltdowns.](http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110524006012.htm) See [Here](http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110524005786.htm) > [@](#): > > According to the report submitted to the Economy, Trade and Industry Ministry’s nuclear safety agency, when the magnitude-9.0 earthquake struck at 2:46 p.m., the Nos. 1-3 reactors lost all external power, but emergency power sources were still in working order. > > The quake triggered an automatic shutdown of the No. 1 reactor, and control rods were inserted into the reactor core. > > At 2:52 p.m., an isolation condenser–a system designed to cool the reactor–was automatically activated. > > But at 3:03 p.m., just 11 minutes later, the cooling system was suspended manually by plant workers. > > The TEPCO operational manual says the reactor’s temperature should not be allowed to fall at a rate of 55 C per hour or more, and isolation condenser operations should be adjusted to prevent such an occurrence. > > TEPCO said its workers halted the cooling system because it had caused excessive cooling, with the reactor temperature falling more than 100 C in the time the condenser had been operating. > > The workers soon reactivated the condenser, before the tsunami hit the plant shortly after 3:30 p.m. > > The tsunami wiped out the direct-current power supply to the plant, and the power loss was interpreted by control systems as indicating a pipe fracture. > > This set off an automatic shutdown of the condenser, closing a series of valves between it and the reactor. Also [Containment vessels also damaged](http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110525006455.htm) > [@](#): > > Not only the pressure vessels, but the containment vessels of the Nos. 1 to 3 reactors at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant were probably damaged within 24 hours of the March 11 earthquake and tsunami, according to Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s analysis of the nuclear crisis. > > In a report on the analysis, the utility said it carried out minute calculations on internal pressure and other measurements in the nuclear reactors after the earthquake. And finally, (and sorry about this thread becoming my personal blog) the Prime Minister will be announcing a plan concerning a [new energy policy](http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110525006158.htm). > [@](#): > > Prime Minister Naoto Kan is set to unveil a new energy policy, dubbed the sunrise program, to promote the use of solar power by cutting costs to one-sixth of current levels by 2030 at a Group of Eight summit meeting in France, according to sources. When we built our house three years ago, I looked into solar, but the payback period was over 30 years, which was prohibitively long. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/131 "2011-05-26T07:35:00Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > If Fukushima is this bad, and the Japanese were as prepared as they were (giving credit to where credit is due, there were somethings which were done right, including having contingency plans for immediate evacuation of residents up to 5 km from the plant, allowing for the emergency venting) then god have mercy on what will happen in China when one of their plants go up. Europe is already moving away from nuclear. Germany is working toward havíng all plants decommisioned by 2020. I am no longer sure what to think of nuclear for power generation. But after being alive for Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and now Fukushima I am a bit heartened that these disasters have not been mushroom clouds on the horizon. I don’t think there is any way to overcome the fear nuclear instills, but those incidents as well as Hiroshima and Nagasaki don’t support the image of a post nuclear event being a barren wasteland for centuries. Not trying to suggest in any way that I find any of these events acceptable. Simply acknowleding that the results didn’t live up to the hype. That’s actually a good thing, because these plants are out there and you can’t make them go away overnight. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/132 "2011-05-26T15:22:32Z")
Who thought there would be a mushroom cloud? The valuable land where the plants are located has become a radioactive wasteland. The plants and animals and the sea have taken heavy doses of radiation. These plants will take a long time before they can be shut down. Billions of dollars have been wasted. I don’t know about any hype saying this was another Nagasaki, but more a Chernobyl. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/133 "2011-05-26T15:35:28Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The valuable land where the plants are located has become a radioactive wasteland. Maybe we’ll get another Road Warrior movie out of it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/134 "2011-05-26T17:44:59Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Maybe we’ll get another Road Warrior movie out of it. Perhaps we all could play in that one. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/135 "2011-05-27T17:02:58Z")
> **[Report From Tokyo: Who to Believe?](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/report-from-tokyo-who-to_b_867863)** > > Despite Japanese government assurances that contaminated water would disperse in the ocean, the truth is that there is a significant, ongoing discharge from the damaged plant and it is having a damaging effect on marine life. SOS. The government and TEPCO are downplaying the contamination to protect themselves. Greenpeace took samples of the seaweed and took them to an independent lab to get tested. They are 50 times over the safe limit. The area around the plant is Chernoblyike in its contamination. All is well. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/136 "2011-05-28T19:35:57Z")
approaching Typhoon Songda is bringing heavy rain to the area, causing worry of radioactive runoff into the ocean. if the storm tracks to the plant the water spraying from truck booms (to cool the reactors) will have to cease for a while. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Presidente](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@El\_Presidente](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Presidente)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716/137 "2011-06-08T05:58:58Z")
What is the latest? It seems as if this story has completely disappeared from the news. What happens next? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-reactor-1-core-meltdown/581716.md?page=6)