# Fukushima still melting down, still a nuclear disaster **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282 "2013-10-03T17:48:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/41 "2013-10-04T18:01:19Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Perhaps you’ve never heard of batteries? They’re these neat things that you can use to store electrical energy. > > ETA: Ninja’d by **Try2B Comprehensive** ; good show, mate! Yeah, you guys should definitely go and talk to the wind and solar guys. They will be like…:smack:…:smack::smack: BATTERIES! Of COURSE!! Why didn’t WE think of that??? Hell, now we can make some serious inroads against traditional electrical generation methods that Bo and Try has told us about batteries!! Seriously. And try and get some money out of them too, since you’ve thought of this and it’s obviously never occurred to these guys. Maybe you’ve saved the planet with this timely suggestion, and perhaps earned some scratch too. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/42 "2013-10-04T19:00:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, you guys should definitely go and talk to the wind and solar guys. They will be like…:smack:…:smack::smack: BATTERIES! Of COURSE!! Why didn’t WE think of that??? Hell, now we can make some serious inroads against traditional electrical generation methods that Bo and Try has told us about batteries!! I confess XT that I assumed they were just joking. They can’t be that ignorant can they? There are methods of energy storage such as molten sodium, kinetic energy storage using water etc. but what batteries are there that can store enough energy to supplies millions of households for a week while the weather picks up? None that I know of and none on the horizon. If only there was some way of harnessing another type of energy, perhaps one that is abundant, renewable and incredibly energy-dense. Ah, a pipe dream I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/43 "2013-10-04T19:12:31Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I confess XT that I assumed they were just joking. They can’t be that ignorant can they? Not familiar with **FX** ’s or **Try 2 B** ’s nearly complete ignorance on energy production (and a number of other issues), are you? I’d link to some threads they’ve participated in, but I only wish that misery on my worst enemies. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/44 "2013-10-04T19:28:26Z")
[QUOTE=Novelty Bobble] I confess XT that I assumed they were just joking. They can’t be that ignorant can they? [/QUOTE] They were totally serious and thought (and still think no doubt) that they were scoring points with those rejoinders. 😛 If you look back on some of the older threads on this subject by FX and his loyal band you’ll see pages and pages of similar stuff. I dis-recommend dipping in too deep, as that way lies madness, but maybe you’ll be ok if you just put a toe in, so to speak… ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/45 "2013-10-04T19:33:04Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > After the earthquake and the shutdown of the reactors, then the tsunami and the underground (:smack:!) generators being rendered useless, was there anything they could have done differently at that point to \*completely \*avert the catastrophe that followed? > > I’m aware that there were lots of things they could have done better/faster with their response that would have minimized the fallout, but what I’m really wondering is if some sort of nuclear engineering “MacGyver” type would have been able to completely save the day with the resources that were available at the time. > > (snip) ISTM that as soon as they knew the generators were kaput, they could/should have immediately moved heaven and earth to get some new generators airlifted in, come hell or high water! :o > > It just seems that with the reactors shut down and no power to their cooling systems, **the results were entirely predictable** , and their immediate response should have been a no-brainer. At that point, you don’t even need the benefit of the hindsight we have now. I’m no MacGyver, or expert on crisis management, but I still can’t help but feel that even _I_ could have found a way to get 'er done if I was there calling the shots (assuming I could have resisted the urge to just run away). > > (snip) > > So, how realistic is my assessment? Was their crisis response really just \*that \*bad, or was the situation at that point just _that_ hopeless? Completely aside from the extremely poor prior planning, is this really a story about the inherent dangers of operating nuclear power plants amidst unpredictable natural disasters, or more just an example of terrible crisis management? (My emphasis.) Not really realistic. I’ll post more later, but this falls under the fog of war heading. The person who could order the heroics (the PM) was not aware of the extent of the problem and there was so much conflicting information. I have a friend who is a high level bureaucrat in the Ministry of Land Infrastructure and Transportation and was working on no sleep for days after the Tsunami. It was a mess. The bureaucratic mindset is amazing. More on that later. I read an account in a Japanese magazine about a guy who owned some specialized pump trucks which could have been used to fill the spent fuel pools, but he couldn’t get through to anyone who understood enough to utilize them. Stuff like that was happening. Of course, there were zillions of people with unrealistic ideas causing more noise to signal problems. As with any disaster, the key is better planning. I’ve got to run now, but I’ll post more later. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/46 "2013-10-04T19:55:54Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Not familiar with **FX** ’s or **Try 2 B** ’s nearly complete ignorance on energy production (and a number of other issues), are you? > > I’d link to some threads they’ve participated in, but I only wish that misery on my worst enemies. Well now I’m tempted but both you and XT have warned me off so…I’ve said my piece and will sidle out backwards. “never wrestle with a pig…” and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/47 "2013-10-04T20:31:45Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Nuke is dead in the US. > {SNIP} > Meanwhile alternatives pile on megawatts all the time, and in the time it would theoretically take to build a single nuke plant, nukes will be even more irrelevant. Iran will have nuclear power before the US builds another plant. Wise wording, since in 2012 the NRC approved construction of four new reactors at existing nuclear plants. Units 2 and 3 of the Virgil C. Summer Nuclear Generating Station and Units 3 and 4 at Vogtle Electric Generating Plant. In addition, TVA’s new reactor at the Watts Bar Nuclear Generating Station restarted construction. None of those seem to have any tsunami walls though :eek: ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/48 "2013-10-04T22:41:48Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > Wise wording, since in 2012 the NRC approved construction of four new reactors at existing nuclear plants. Units 2 and 3 of the Virgil C. Summer Nuclear Generating Station and Units 3 and 4 at Vogtle Electric Generating Plant. In addition, TVA’s new reactor at the Watts Bar Nuclear Generating Station restarted construction. > > None of those seem to have any tsunami walls though :eek: “Approving construction” is very general and vague, and all those projects are beneficiaries of corporate welfare, subsidies, and rate-payer gouging, as I said. In other words, DOE loan guarantees and advanced guaranteed cost recovery schemes that will cost rate payers billions, and will cost them many tens of billions more if the projects actually go forward. None of them will be finished before 2020, which means some unknown number of years after that, and the projects are already piling up huge overruns and delays. When they cancel the projects, rate payers and taxpayers of course will cover the billions in losses, and none of it is refundable. Here’s a nice primer on this you can read in this pdf: [NUCLEAR SOCIALISM COMES TO THE HEARTLAND OF AMERICA](http://iowa.sierraclub.org/Nuclear/Cooper-Iowa-Advanced-Cost-Recovery-report-FINAL.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/49 "2013-10-04T23:10:54Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > If you are discussing the disaster and you haven’t watched the Frontline special > [Inside Japan's Nuclear Meltdown | FRONTLINE](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/japans-nuclear-meltdown/) > you probably should shut the fuck up. No, that doesn’t work. There are other sources of information. Attempting to funnel all debate through one particular source is logically invalid. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/50 "2013-10-05T00:47:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’d be more concerned about people than plants but the important thing is to take a wide view. We know some people take a wide stance. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, yeah. 'Cause we got enough of them suckers to tidy us over for the foreseeable future. We can afford to muck up with renewable experiments, seeing as our base is covered with plentiful, safe, clean and only-opposed-by-scientifically-illiterate-bozos nuclear energy. > > No, seriously, we love that shit. OTOH, there’s plenty of opposition to wind energy from French farmers. Might be renewable, clean and good kharma galore ; but it’s woefully surface-intensive and that land could have been used for cash crops instead; you see ? You’ll show us!! With actual results!!! Wind cannot be relied upon! Sometimes the wind stops blowing all over the world for months at a time. And the sun? Ha! Sometimes the sun stops shining all over the world for months at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/51 "2013-10-05T01:45:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, you guys should definitely go and talk to the wind and solar guys. They will be like…:smack:…:smack::smack: BATTERIES! Of COURSE!! Why didn’t WE think of that??? Hell, now we can make some serious inroads against traditional electrical generation methods that Bo and Try has told us about batteries!! > > Seriously. And try and get some money out of them too, since you’ve thought of this and it’s obviously never occurred to these guys. Maybe you’ve saved the planet with this timely suggestion, and perhaps earned some scratch too. You oughta fire off a memo real quick to the folks in Japan [installing such a system right now](http://global-sei.com/news/press/13/prs088_s.html) and let them know it can never work before they go to all the trouble. Send a copy to the governor of California while you’re at it, where those fools are [mandating 1.3 GW of installed storage capacity by 2020.](http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/california-sets-1.3gw-energy-storage-target-by-2020) But I know how this will go- the batteries aren’t big enough for every circumstance! They weren’t installed yesterday, so forget it! That won’t get you 100% renewable power generation, so it needs to be trashed! And so on. ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/52 "2013-10-05T02:00:09Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > “Approving construction” is very general and vague, and all those projects are beneficiaries of corporate welfare, subsidies, and rate-payer gouging, as I said. In other words, DOE loan guarantees and advanced guaranteed cost recovery schemes that will cost rate payers billions, and will cost them many tens of billions more if the projects actually go forward. None of them will be finished before 2020 Watts Bar 2 is on-schedule for fuel-load in 2015. Vogtle and Summer are 2017 and 2018, respectively, and while there may be a few more delays - these are new reactor types after all - at this point they should be minimal. Oh yeah, no “subsidies” or “gouging” at Watts Bar. TVA still has nearly the lowest rates in the country, receives no federal funding, and is operating at under its congressionally mandated debt limit. But tell me more about new nuclear construction. Please be detailed. I’ll pass your wealth of knowledge on to my coworkers at Watts Bar, my former coworkers at Summer, and my friends at Vogtle. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/53 "2013-10-05T02:48:50Z")
[Lol.](http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-T-Z/USA--Nuclear-Power/#New_build) > [@](#): > > Watts Bar 2 > > While the focus is on new technology, TVA undertook a detailed feasibility study which led to its decision in 2007 to complete unit 2 of its Watts Bar nuclear power plant in Tennessee. The 1177 MWe reactor was expected to start up in October 2012 and come online in 2013 at a cost of about $2.5 billion, but this schedule has slipped substantially, so that TVA now expects it on line in November 2015, with major budget overrun to almost $4.0 billion. Construction had been suspended in 1985 when 80% complete and (after parts were cannibalized to reduce that figure to 61%) resumed in October 2007 under a still-valid permit, and in April 2012 was 70% complete. Its twin, unit 1, started operation in 1996. Completing Watts Bar 2 utilizes an existing asset, thus saving time and cost relative to alternatives for new base-load capacity. It was expected to provide power at 4.4 ¢/kWh, 20-25% less than coal-fired or new nuclear alternatives and 43% less than natural gas. It is a regulated plant, with guaranteed cost recovery. Construction began in 1973! My God, that’s 40-fucking years already! This latest attempt to complete the project started in 2007 and was supposed to finished last year for $2.5 billion and now it’s maybe 2015 and it’s up to $4.5 billion. Yes, it has guaranteed cost recovery. Too funny. And it’s old technology too. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/54 "2013-10-05T04:41:17Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > (My emphasis.) > > Not really realistic. I’ll post more later, but this falls under the fog of war heading. The person who could order the heroics (the PM) was not aware of the extent of the problem and there was so much conflicting information. I have a friend who is a high level bureaucrat in the Ministry of Land Infrastructure and Transportation and was working on no sleep for days after the Tsunami. It was a mess. The bureaucratic mindset is amazing. More on that later. > > I read an account in a Japanese magazine about a guy who owned some specialized pump trucks which could have been used to fill the spent fuel pools, but he couldn’t get through to anyone who understood enough to utilize them. Stuff like that was happening. Of course, there were zillions of people with unrealistic ideas causing more noise to signal problems. > > As with any disaster, the key is better planning. > > I’ve got to run now, but I’ll post more later. I look forward to any insights you may be able to provide. In the meanwhile, I had some time to do a little further reading which helped clarify a few of the things I was wondering about. First I read [Frontline’s interview with TEPCO’s Managing Director, Akio Kimori](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/health-science-technology/japans-nuclear-meltdown/tepcos-akio-komori-the-options-we-had-available-were-rather-limited/). That gave me a bit of insight into details I was unaware of, but there was some apparent (and expected) glossing over of the missteps. But all in all, I was glad to have read it. Then I moved on to [Frontline’s interview with Japan’s former PM, Naoto Kan](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/health-science-technology/japans-nuclear-meltdown/naoto-kan-japan-was-invaded-by-an-invisible-enemy/), and in so doing, I gained a \*much \*greater understanding of the chain of events. **For anybody else unfamiliar with all of the intimate details about the response to the crisis, and wants it all explained in plain, easily accessible language,** \*\*I _highly recommend reading the whole interview_. He was surprisingly and refreshingly candid about the challenges and failures. Maybe he could have admitted more responsibility for some of those failures, but at least he acknowledged that they existed, which was more than I expected. Reading that interview is a really good primer for those of us who want to gain a better understanding of how it all happened, but rather not have to get bogged down in too many technical details. Now, a bit of a disclaimer, given the thread’s vehemence: I imagine some might try to read into my endorsement of the former PM’s interview, and assume that I do so because I share his conclusions about the immediate future of nuclear power. I don’t think I do. My feelings on the issue either way are no where near as strong as most of the people in this thread seem to have. But, like _everybody here_, I’d like to see a move to clean, renewable, alternative energy sources ASAP. I just tend to agree with those who think “ASAP” requires intelligent implementation of \*all \*of our options in order to transition away from our current reliance on fossil fuels. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/55 "2013-10-05T18:02:17Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I have praise for FXMastermind from this thread [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=602177&highlight=fukushima&page=7](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=602177&highlight=fukushima&page=7) where he continued to beat down the nuclear apologists into a figuratively radioactive pulp, even though he was wrong on the special language the apologists used for their priesthood, turns out that he was essentially 100 percent correct that this was a first order nuclear disaster and they were 100 percent wrong, despite being experts. At the time I was quite unaware of the seriousness and dangers that were actually looming. The press, despite the lies about there being fearmongering, actually never spelled out the worst case scenarios, and that is a good thing. The worst case actually is something people don’t want to think about. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (AP) - Long before the nuclear emergency in Japan, U.S. regulators knew that a power failure lasting for days at an American nuclear plant, whatever the cause, could lead to a radioactive leak. Even so, they have only required the nation’s 104 nuclear reactors to develop plans for dealing with much shorter blackouts on the assumption that power would be restored quickly. > > In one nightmare simulation presented by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in 2009, it would take less than a day for radiation to escape from a reactor at a Pennsylvania nuclear power plant after an earthquake, flood or fire knocked out all electrical power and there was no way to keep the reactors cool after backup battery power ran out. That plant, the Peach Bottom Atomic Power Station, has reactors of the same older make and model as those releasing radiation at Japan’s Fukushima Dai-ichi plant, which is using other means to try to cool the reactors. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13627199&postcount=301](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13627199&postcount=301) While the original story is long gone (of course), the reality is simple in regards to old reactors. They are not made to sustain a power outage of any time. Certainly since Fukushima we hope somebody got a clue, and they added safety features to prevent another first class disaster. It’s doubtful, since there is no information available to actually know. The extreme danger that existed at the time, actually still is there. One bad earthquake, or another tsunami would fuck over the current situation at Fukushima, and we would be right back at the worst case scenario again. It could happen at any moment. That is the story the press ignores, and the nuclear lovers fear. It still is quite unbelievable that a State Department idiot, Julia Nesheiwat, simply avoided answering the critical question. And the press didn’t press her for an answer. They didn’t press anyone for an answer. > [@](#): > > At one point during the week, the hazard was so great the Japanese took all but about 70 workers out of the plant. > > Their problem is water: the systems that keep the radioactive fuel rods cool failed. The rods are partially melting, releasing radiation. And it’s not just the reactors - there are also used fuel rods, essentially nuclear waste, stored in pools nearby. They’re also losing water. > > American experts fear one of these pools is already dry. Nesheiwat told “60 Minutes” the danger is multiplied because the reactors are so close to each other. > > “That is a grave concern at this time. If there is an explosion, if there is a meltdown, a fire, it can absolutely affect the neighboring plants,” she told Pelley. > > Asked what that would mean, she said, “ **Goodness, I don’t even want to think what that could mean**. That’s just something that we would have to really plan for it at the greatest scale. And we’re hoping and praying that that’s not the case.” [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/20/60minutes/main20045131.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/20/60minutes/main20045131.shtml) There’s the level of stupid we are faced with. “ **Goodness, I don’t even want to think what that could mean**. That’s just something that we would have to really plan for it at the greatest scale. And\*\* we’re hoping and praying that that’s not the case\*\*.” That pretty much sums up the response if it really does go completely off the rails. This is, in essence, the real problem with nuclear reactors. With modern power plants containing multiple reactors in a row. If things, for whatever reason, actually get bad, it’s game over. There isn’t a solution. Much like what we see at fukushima right now, but of course a thousand times worse. There isn’t a way to fix it. If it breaks bad, there isn’t a solution. At the heart of the fear and loathing, it’s the unspeakable truth. be it war, sabotage, earthquake, fire, flood or a meteor, or human error and stupidity, if things get bad, there isn’t any way to stop it at some point. There is no fix. It’s what the lover of nuclear can’t ever admit, not even to themselves. That things could become so bad, even with suicide troops, there isn’t any way to stop it. Chernobyl is considered “the worst” by most, when in reality it was sort of fixable, because it was all open, you could just keep dumping shit on it until it was safe enough to build something over it, and then build another thing over that, and keep doing that for the next 10,000 years or so. Fukushima the problems are deep inside, and there is no way to fix it. Even the exposed cooling ponds full of their terrible dangers, even those can’t be fixed at present. It’s why it’s damn dangerous. They can’t move the danger to someplace safer. Certainly we all hope they have shored up the building, and we know they are covering all of the ruined buildings with new structures, and we all really hope there is no earthquake or other disaster to threaten the fuel ponds, before they figure out how to move the spent fuel. Of course the groundwater issue is a real bitch. Not a small issue, because they have to deal with it for decades, or longer. You can’t stop pumping water. And the water is radioactive as hell. If the reactors weren’t leaking like crazy into the ground, it would be manageable. but it’s not. It’s actually the dreaded “worst case” scenario of nuclear reactors. Complete meltdown. Except it’s three reactors. And four fuel ponds. And it’s just a fucking mess. The more nuclear lovers try and spin it, the less anyone believes you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/56 "2013-10-05T18:38:12Z")
My understanding is that they have done nothing to shore up the buildings from collapsing and making things worse. But until there are verifiable deaths from radiation beyond a reasonable doubt caused by Fukushima, this is no big deal. The reason they have done nothing is that it is far too dangerous for construction crews to do anything to shore up the teetering structures. Does anyone have any information on how the people who have lost their homes have been compensated? If they have. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/57 "2013-10-05T19:22:58Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > There’s the level of stupid we are faced with. “ **Goodness, I don’t even want to think what that could mean**. That’s just something that we would have to really plan for it at the greatest scale. And\*\* we’re hoping and praying that that’s not the case\*\*.” > > That pretty much sums up the response if it really does go completely off the rails. This is, in essence, the real problem with nuclear reactors. With modern power plants containing multiple reactors in a row. > > If things, for whatever reason, actually get bad, it’s game over. There isn’t a solution. Much like what we see at fukushima right now, but of course a thousand times worse. > > There isn’t a way to fix it. If it breaks bad, there isn’t a solution. At the heart of the fear and loathing, it’s the unspeakable truth. be it war, sabotage, earthquake, fire, flood or a meteor, or human error and stupidity, if things get bad, there isn’t any way to stop it at some point. There is no fix. This. Risk assessors will only tolerate so much and then it’s “impossible, once a million years, too expensive, too horrible to think about.” That’s nuclear power guys. “Too horrible to think about.” Then it happens. Then it happens again, worse. We have a relatively small number of nuke plants now, and we want 1000s the world over? We can’t stop these things, we can’t really prepare for them, so we should not do them. Not for large scale commercial power at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/58 "2013-10-05T20:01:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > BATTERIES! Of COURSE!! Why didn’t WE think of that?!?!? Hell, now we can make some serious inroads against traditional electrical generation methods that Bo and Try has told us about batteries!! > > Seriously. And try and get some money out of them too, since you’ve thought of this and it’s obviously never occurred to these guys. Back to this… I have made quite a lot of money investing in renewable energy, very nearly doubling my money since starting in February. As for batteries, I am literally already on it, thanks. Investing in battery companies… maybe later, but besides that I am currently attempting to design and build my own. If I can pull it off, maybe I will make money off of the concept. Or maybe it will never be more than a hobby. Who knows? So far there isn’t anything to report. But look. Solar and wind are installing ~70 gigawatts of capacity a year worldwide, increasing every year. The US total nuclear capacity stands at ~115 gigawatts (almost 350 gw globally), with little prospect for growth. From a purely investment standpoint, which looks most promising? I think the market for batteries will grow into a $100+ billion market, while nuclear seems to be in decline. XT, what is it about nuclear power that makes you so agitated? I never see you like this- even when setting straight the most obvious trolls you proceed thoughtfully and straightforwardly. But when the topic turns to nuclear power, you go ballistic (pun intended). What’s the story? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/59 "2013-10-06T04:39:12Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > This. Risk assessors will only tolerate so much and then it’s “impossible, once a million years, too expensive, too horrible to think about.” > > That’s nuclear power guys. “Too horrible to think about.” Then it happens. Then it happens again, worse. We have a relatively small number of nuke plants now, and we want 1000s the world over? We can’t stop these things, we can’t really prepare for them, so we should not do them. Not for large scale commercial power at any rate. It’s quite a quandary, especially since a well run, safe nuclear power plant, produces so little pollution, and so much power. Even knowing the dangers, I still like the idea of nuclear power, it’s an amazing thing. The ideal is so attractive. The harsh reality, so brutal and unforgiving. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > My understanding is that they have done nothing to shore up the buildings from collapsing and making things worse. They have done a lot to try and safe the plant. Every day more is being done. The estimated cost in US dollars, to fix the problem, is over 60 billion dollars. That is of course far too low, and since it is a decades long problem, odds are the cost will go up with each new disaster they can not anticipate. Like the Aug 4th quake this year. We all hope nothing worse happens there. > [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Solar and wind are installing ~70 gigawatts of capacity a year worldwide, increasing every year. The US total nuclear capacity stands at ~115 gigawatts (almost 350 gw globally), with little prospect for growth. I find the power generation discussion interesting, like those facts there. There should be a serious thread on this. It just doesn’t really matter to the current situation at the crippled power plant. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282/60 "2013-10-06T12:30:33Z")
[Safecast](http://blog.safecast.org/faq/japan/) is a non-governmental grassroots organization that has been taking independent radiation readings in Japan since shortly after the quake. They compare and contrast their readings with official ones from both the Japanese government and other groups that have gathered data. Their data is probably better than the “official” sources simply because they have far greater resolution from a much larger pool of data. Their verdict on the situation boils down to: it’s not all that great, but you shouldn’t be losing your shit over it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fukushima-still-melting-down-still-a-nuclear-disaster/670282.md?page=4)