# Full Metal Jacket Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798 "2010-07-15T17:00:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/41 "2010-07-17T17:25:58Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > Was this the Marine equivalent of “Memphis Belle” movie, where many different incidents were combined into one single flight for dramatic purposes? Or were they really that savage every single day? Or “Scum”, the film about a young offenders institute. Everything that was depicted in that film has actually happened in a borstal, but not during the stay of one prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/42 "2010-07-17T17:27:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Is that still the case today? > > I’m asking because it completely contradicts my own experiences in a non-US military (we were supposed to have a full magazine upon us at all times from the second week of basic training, as well as 5 more full mags in our web gear, and we kept a bucket full of loose rounds in our barracks in case someone needed to top off). Yup. In Marine Corps Recruit Training your rifle is on you just about all times. You might stack arms for chow or PT, but that’s the farthest it’ll get from you IIRC. At night you don’t sleep with it, rather it’s secured with a cable and lock (the cable going in through the magazine will and out the ejection port) to your rack. Part of the fire watch’s job is to ensure all those rifles are where they’re suppose to be at night. He’s even suppose to give that number to any Drill Instructor or Marine that comes at deck at night (Sir, There are 68 recruits and 68 rifles on deck, sir!). Like I said up thread this was 10 years ago, but I doubt any of that has changed in any serious degree. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/43 "2010-07-17T17:33:36Z")
It was the same thing with us, except that we’d sleep with our rifles under our heads (under the mattress, natch), and that we’d always keep a full magazine with the rifle - although not loaded, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/44 "2010-07-17T19:50:45Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Full Metal Jacket was set in 1968. Well, the second half was, depicted as it did the Tet Offensive (January 31, 1968). The first half shows the recruits singing _Happy Birthday_ to Jesus, possibly on December 25, 1967, though I think it’s more plausibly December 25, 1966. When we see Joker in Vietnam, he’s settled in pretty well and when he runs into Cowboy, a marine from the same recruit course, Cowboy is already a sergeant, suggesting more than one month has passed between parts one and two. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/45 "2010-07-17T19:57:15Z")
It’s nice to see R. Lee still getting work: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APwfZYO1di4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APwfZYO1di4) ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/46 "2010-07-17T20:26:47Z")
At Ft Sill in mid-80’s, a basic ‘recruit’ would only be given a rifle when needed for training. NEVER would one be taken into barracks, and never would there be real ammo near barracks. The rifles were locked up in a separate room, issued each morning and returned when done for the day. If actual shooting was not required, a ‘rubber-duck’ (hard rubber/plastic model similar to real M-16) was given, and it was treated exactly as if it was a real rifle. no exceptions. The barracks I was in through Basic are the same exact ones from that dumb Pauly Shore movie, iirc - three story buildings with common areas underneath the living area and weapons only allowed on ground level. I remember all too well how we were initially issued actual rifles/ammo for real guard duty around Pershings/big guns located a block or so away, and in middle of night when I was in dayroom awaiting my two-hour shift (2 on 4 off every other night every couple weeks), we all heard the ratatatat of full-auto nearby. BIG surprise to all, and turns out one guy saw a small snake in grass and started shooting at it - towards the friggin’ missiles! Within a few hours, a new directive was sent out from HQ that never again would recruits be given real rifles/ammo for guard duty. No idea if that was a pivotal moment in Army training 😕 That was the closest that us boots ever got to actually carrying rifle and ammo at same time other than at the range itself. Every round, and expended shell, was counted twice before we could get back on the City Bus (cattle truck). I did see a couple guys get kicked hard in head (while in foxhole at shooting range) but that was extent of any ‘violence’ I ever saw/heard about. The worst injury was a black eye; no biggie in perspective. Turning around in ‘foxhole’ and accidentally pointing your loaded rifle at a Drill _should_ get a hard kick in head, if not worse. Usually happened once - lesson learned, always. ---
**Author:** ![Dennis3240](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@Dennis3240](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dennis3240)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/47 "2010-07-17T23:11:40Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > What’s the lesson? Is that like in Scent of a Woman when Al Pacino chides Chris O’Donnell for saying gun instead of piece or weapon? But what’s wrong with that? Well I’m going to guess if your a marine and in battle and you shout out “My rifle is broken” It is to mean that your weapon is inoperable and you are in need of a replacement weapon. While on the other hand if you shout out “My gun is broken” It is to mean you have erectile dysfunction, that while tragic, is at the moment irrelevant considering that we are under heavy fire from the enemy. My guess anyway;) ---
**Author:** ![SanDiegoTim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@SanDiegoTim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanDiegoTim)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/48 "2010-07-18T03:56:14Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Stupid weapon question: why did they train with M14’s when they were (mostly) all going to be issued M16’s in combat? We were one of the last platoons who were issued M-14s and received marksmanship training with them. At that time (mid '69) the Marines didn’t have enough 16’s for boot camp usage. However, after boot camp came infantry training. At this point only 16’a were issued. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Captain\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/49 "2010-07-18T05:23:40Z")
Another thing, Gunny Sgt. Hartmann wasn’t the “bad guy”. He was doing his job. I am sure there were worse DI’s out there than Hartman’s character. At least Hartman was funny. It was Leonard who broke and went crazy under the pressure. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/50 "2010-07-18T06:32:07Z")
What finally broke him was the blanket party from his fellow recruits, especially when Joker, who was the closest thing to his friend, joined in. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/51 "2010-07-18T08:01:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > Another thing, Gunny Sgt. Hartmann wasn’t the “bad guy”. He was doing his job. > I am sure there were worse DI’s out there than Hartman’s character. At least Hartman was funny. > > It was Leonard who broke and went crazy under the pressure. To be fair, Hartman should have seen what was going on ahead of time. He had enough experience to notice when one of his men was approaching his breaking point. He was also a bit of an idiot. When a soldier grabs a weapon and threatens you and/or himself - which happens, from time to time - you don’t start shouting _“WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION!?”_ ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/52 "2010-07-18T13:37:05Z")
> [@Ionizer](#): > > At Ft Sill in mid-80’s, a basic ‘recruit’ would only be given a rifle when needed for training. NEVER would one be taken into barracks, and never would there be real ammo near barracks. The rifles were locked up in a separate room, issued each morning and returned when done for the day. If actual shooting was not required, a ‘rubber-duck’ (hard rubber/plastic model similar to real M-16) was given, and it was treated exactly as if it was a real rifle. no exceptions. The barracks I was in through Basic are the same exact ones from that dumb Pauly Shore movie, iirc - three story buildings with common areas underneath the living area and weapons only allowed on ground level. > > I remember all too well how we were initially issued actual rifles/ammo for real guard duty around Pershings/big guns located a block or so away, and in middle of night when I was in dayroom awaiting my two-hour shift (2 on 4 off every other night every couple weeks), we all heard the ratatatat of full-auto nearby. BIG surprise to all, and turns out one guy saw a small snake in grass and started shooting at it - towards the friggin’ missiles! Within a few hours, a new directive was sent out from HQ that never again would recruits be given real rifles/ammo for guard duty. No idea if that was a pivotal moment in Army training 😕 That was the closest that us boots ever got to actually carrying rifle and ammo at same time other than at the range itself. Every round, and expended shell, was counted twice before we could get back on the City Bus (cattle truck). > > I did see a couple guys get kicked hard in head (while in foxhole at shooting range) but that was extent of any ‘violence’ I ever saw/heard about. The worst injury was a black eye; no biggie in perspective. Turning around in ‘foxhole’ and accidentally pointing your loaded rifle at a Drill _should_ get a hard kick in head, if not worse. Usually happened once - lesson learned, always. So much has changed. Basic Trainees are issued their weapons almost immediately, and they stay in the bays with the Soldiers. At night, they are locked in the racks, usually in the center of the floor (the Kill Zone). Soldiers have their weapons with them at all other times. Except maybe PT, I think. Also, Cattle Trucks are banned by TRADOC. Only vehicles with air conditioning are allowed due to heat related injuries. One too many trainee deaths due to heat, and everything changes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/53 "2010-07-18T16:06:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To be fair, Hartman should have seen what was going on ahead of time. He had enough experience to notice when one of his men was approaching his breaking point. > > He was also a bit of an idiot. When a soldier grabs a weapon and threatens you and/or himself - which happens, from time to time - you don’t start shouting _“WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION!?”_ Agreed on the first, but he had to always maintain the illusion of control-it was an ego thing to not acknowledge that Pyle had the drop on him and no longer was within his sway. Frankly Pyle should have washed out long before the blanket party, like a week or two in. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/54 "2010-07-18T16:21:38Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Agreed on the first, but he had to always maintain the illusion of control-it was an ego thing to not acknowledge that Pyle had the drop on him and no longer was within his sway. Frankly Pyle should have washed out long before the blanket party, like a week or two in. Ego schmego - any tactic that results in getting shot in the chest is a bad one. Hartman should have dropped out of character and spoken to Pyle as one human being to another. What difference would it have made? Pyle had effectively washed out of the service the moment he pointed that weapon, and besides, basic training was over. Just a few soft words and glimmer of respect would have defused a very tense situation. Soldiers are supposed to fight smart, aren’t they? Analyze the situation, and provide the best response. The whole purpose of the scene was, IMHO, to show how Hartman had gotten caught up in his own bullshit - with fatal results. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/55 "2010-07-18T16:32:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > …The whole purpose of the scene was, IMHO, to show how Hartman had gotten caught up in his own bullshit - with fatal results. I couldn’t agree more with everything you wrote… but that wouldn’t have been as dramatic. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/56 "2010-07-18T16:47:37Z")
I dunno… the scene never rang true to me. Surely that wasn’t the first time a marine had held a gun on his CO; surely Hartman had received some training on how to handle these sort of situations, if not some personal experience with them. I find it hard to believe that the textbook USMC solution to these situations was _shouting_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/57 "2010-07-18T17:55:11Z")
Huh. I thought the textbook USMC response to _everything_ was shouting. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/58 "2010-07-18T18:20:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Ego schmego - any tactic that results in getting shot in the chest is a bad one. Never said it was the wisest response. > [@](#): > > Hartman should have dropped out of character and spoken to Pyle as one human being to another. What difference would it have made? Pyle had effectively washed out of the service the moment he pointed that weapon, and besides, basic training was over. Just a few soft words and glimmer of respect would have defused a very tense situation. Soldiers are supposed to fight smart, aren’t they? Analyze the situation, and provide the best response. > > The whole purpose of the scene was, IMHO, to show how Hartman had gotten caught up in his own bullshit - with fatal results. And how, exactly, is this different from letting his ego, not his brain, affect his reaction? He simply couldn’t accept that he was no longer in control-which is part and parcel of putting on the DI mask. Amazing how people on this site like to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/59 "2010-07-18T21:40:04Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > So much has changed. Basic Trainees are issued their weapons almost immediately, and they stay in the bays with the Soldiers. At night, they are locked in the racks, usually in the center of the floor (the Kill Zone). Soldiers have their weapons with them at all other times. Except maybe PT, I think. > > Also, Cattle Trucks are banned by TRADOC. Only vehicles with air conditioning are allowed due to heat related injuries. One too many trainee deaths due to heat, and everything changes. Thx for the info. I had always assumed there was a difference in how Artillery MOS’s and Infantry MOS’s (different Forts/different routines) ran the training. It always felt silly carrying around those rubber ‘rifles’. As far as the cattle trucks, I saw a bunch of troops seemingly loading into a few of them just a few months ago at Ft Sill, at the NBC-training range where I got ‘gassed’ myself so long ago. There were also the A/C-eqpd ‘true buses’ there as well, so probably they were just loading their gear onto them. Come to think of it - there were not any rifles present at that range that day, iirc anyways, when I drove slowly by showing my daughter the so-young looking troops (we were going to Geronimo’s grave, fwiw). There were the requisite in-formation piles of helmet-liner/web-gear/etc as I personally recall so vividly, but no rifles anywhere in sight, not even stacked under guard. Troops were ‘unarmed’ and at the different stations doing their stuff. Curiosity is quite aroused now. I saw no rifles anywhere both during their station-training when I went by first time, nor when they were lined up by the vehicles less than 20 yards from me when I was going back home couple hours later. Daughter even commented on it - “where are their guns?” (and, yes, I did tell her they were rifles and then took her to see the true guns before leaving Fort). I’m sure Marines have a fairly different routine/training mission, so not trying to compare them as apple-apple at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798/60 "2010-07-18T22:34:53Z")
> [@Ionizer](#): > > Thx for the info. I had always assumed there was a difference in how Artillery MOS’s and Infantry MOS’s (different Forts/different routines) ran the training. It always felt silly carrying around those rubber ‘rifles’. Keep in mind that ALL Initial Entry Training is _ran_ out of Ft Jackson. All of the policy and standards of instruction and methods and routines all come out of Ft Jackson. They are also the big influence on any revisions to AR 350-6. This is why even the all-male OSUTs for Infantry and Armor and (is Artillery an OSUT?) have a required block of female hygeine instruction! Ridiculous bureaucracy at work. > [@](#): > > As far as the cattle trucks, I saw a bunch of troops seemingly loading into a few of them just a few months ago at Ft Sill, at the NBC-training range where I got ‘gassed’ myself so long ago. There were also the A/C-eqpd ‘true buses’ there as well, so probably they were just loading their gear onto them. I would be so surprised to see actual Soldiers being crammed into non-AC equipped cattle trucks. Either they were modified and equipped with air conditioners or they were just loading equipment as you said. > [@](#): > > Come to think of it - there were not any rifles present at that range that day, iirc anyways, when I drove slowly by showing my daughter the so-young looking troops (we were going to Geronimo’s grave, fwiw). There were the requisite in-formation piles of helmet-liner/web-gear/etc as I personally recall so vividly, but no rifles anywhere in sight, not even stacked under guard. That is interesting. With all the emphasis on “weapon immersion”, I couldn’t imagine why they would be out in the field without their rifles. I’m at a loss. > [@](#): > > Troops were ‘unarmed’ and at the different stations doing their stuff. Curiosity is quite aroused now. Mine too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/full-metal-jacket-question/546798.md?page=4)