# Fun fact: Welsh language got rid of K **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 7, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218 "2023-10-07T00:51:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/1 "2023-10-07T00:51:43Z")
> **[Why the Welsh Alphabet Has No ”K” Because of the Bible | uCatholic](https://ucatholic.com/blog/why-the-welsh-alphabet-has-no-k-because-of-the-bible/)** > > 📖🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿Did you know the Welsh alphabet doesn't have the letter "K" today - and it's because of the Bible! Learn the interesting reason why! 👉 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/2 "2023-10-07T00:58:16Z")
They don’t have Q,V,X, and Z either. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/3 "2023-10-07T01:09:57Z")
Right, so K, Q, V, X and Z are generally not used. K is replaced with C Q is replaced with Cw V is replaced with F (and [f] is written ff) X is replaced with Cs Z is replaced with S ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/4 "2023-10-07T01:13:15Z")
This is perhaps a bit glib. Welsh has a /k/ sound. In the Middle Ages, K was used. Just scanning through one text, I see K used before E, Y, and 6 (which is more or less W). C is used before A, O, U, consonants such as L, and finally, and before H (CH is considered a single letter and makes the /x/ sound). This is consistent. Word finally, however, the letter C makes a /g/ sound in these texts, and the letter G is also used to make the sound /g/ (and /ŋ/), so the system wasn’t ideal. The modern Welsh spelling system, introduced around the same time as the printing press, fixed C as the letter for /k/ and, as CH, for /x/. There was no need for K. The idea that this had something to do with English printers is ludicrous, as English has a good deal more Ks per page than medieval Welsh. In Genesis 1:1–21, for instance, there is only one potential K, in the word _kyntaf._ In the King James Version, there are 9: four in _darkness,_ and five in _kind._ Admittedly that’s a small sample size, but it at least suggests that this factoid is nonsense. Further, on the subject of linguistic prejudice, there are a _ **lot** _ of ways that English discussion of Welsh otherizes the language, particularly with regard to spelling, which is part of a broader pattern of linguistic oppression. Welsh isn’t unique in this: it’s pretty much any minority language in the face of a more dominant national language, especially in a colonial setting. But that at least suggests why these nonsense stories have such popularity. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/5 "2023-10-07T01:15:09Z")
Kyntaf becam Cyntaf. Remember, unless you are writing in Middle Welsh, you have to always write with a C ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/6 "2023-10-07T01:16:59Z")
And it’s the _letter_ V that isn’t used. The sound /v/ is quite common in Welsh. Z does get used. [Hanes y ddaear a'r creaduriaid byw ... Gyda golygiad arweiniol o'r deyrnas ... - Oliver Goldsmith - Google Books](https://books.google.ca/books?id=V8cMVsHXS_QC&pg=RA1-PA248&lpg=RA1-PA248&dq=%22anifail%22+%22zebra%22&source=bl&ots=WFPCqGThCR&sig=ACfU3U1-LTei3M9LiRrSP-mJwLsfmtEZMA&hl=cy&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-mL3A4eKBAxXvEjQIHZJAB8UQ6AF6BAhQEAM#v=onepage&q=%22anifail%22%20%22zebra%22&f=false) is a google book extract from 1868 talking about the zebra, for example. You also find _sebra_, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/7 "2023-10-07T01:54:49Z")
K, Q, V, X and Z aren’t used. So unless you are writing in Middle Welsh, you have to write words like cyntaf with a c, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/8 "2023-10-07T02:10:11Z")
I just gave you an example of where Z was used in Modern Welsh. These letters are used all the time in names and in borrowed words, though the Welsh alphabet omits them. For example, [Just Mwydro… – just mwydro](https://justmwydro.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/just-mwydro/) from 2017 has the sentence “Ond, er os ydwi’n swnio fel rhyw lun o ddrama queen, dwi yn edrych ymlaen at roi go arno fo!” (“But, even if I sound like some portrait of a drama queen, I’m looking forward to getting a go at it!”—I’m not 100% sure on the translation of _er_ in this context.) I don’t think you could argue that this sentence isn’t Welsh, or even that the expression “drama queen” hasn’t been borrowed, since it has undergone soft mutation from /drama/ to /δrama/ after the word “o.” (You do also have the phrase _brenhines ddrama,_ with the Welsh word for “queen.”) It’s only in the prescriptivist sense that you can say these letters aren’t used. They’re used _constantly_ in Welsh-language texts. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/9 "2023-10-07T03:39:55Z")
I always thought Welsh a pretty language. I understand Wales also recently reduced community speed limits to 20 mph from 30 mph, claiming this would save lives and health care money. But a lot of people are apparently. annoyed… ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/10 "2023-10-07T06:33:25Z")
My part of London, and I think many other local authorities up and down the country, went to 20mph on most roads some years ago. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/11 "2023-10-07T10:55:21Z")
Moderating > [@Jagraze1](#): > > [Why the Welsh Alphabet Has No ”K” Because of the Bible | uCatholic](https://ucatholic.com/blog/why-the-welsh-alphabet-has-no-k-because-of-the-bible/) You need to add something more then a bare link to start a thread. Okay, this might be an interesting factoid. What aspect to you want to discuss? Your second post, plus the link, would have been adequate, although it’s still unclear what interests you about this. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/12 "2023-10-07T13:54:44Z")
Perhaps just too cwic on the draw? (Cyflym, if you insist). You could tell us the interesting reasons as well as linking them. People don’t like clicking every link since some of them are too full of sausage. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fun-fact-welsh-language-got-rid-of-k/991218/13 "2023-10-07T14:44:16Z")
And did the new speed limit go down well? 😉