# Fundamental LOTR Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 24, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamental-lotr-question/469437 "2008-10-24T22:20:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamental-lotr-question/469437/61 "2008-10-26T14:50:37Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Melkor/Sauron/Saruman/Grima/Bill the Pony don’t really need a reason for their evilness. You mean sleazy Bill Ferny, not stalwart Bill the Pony. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamental-lotr-question/469437/62 "2008-10-26T15:01:02Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Did Sauron only want to rule? > > I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the end of his ambition. However, I also wouldn’t be surprised if he somehow saw himself using his powers and the adoration of all his slaves to ascend to his old power and from there make war on Heaven. He had no chance. He was Maiar, after all. The Valar would have squashed him like a bug if he laid siege personally to Valinor. Perhaps he could have planned to free his master, Melkor. Then, with the power of Melkor’s ring (Arda), together maybe they could have done something. But I think it more likely he just wanted to rule all of Arda marred. > [@](#): > > he did begin a tale of the Fifth Age. In it, society is troubled by a dark cult led by Herumor. Who Herumor really was, it’s just a title meaning the Dark Lord, or what powers, if any, he had are unknown. 4th age, actually. Circa 220, 4th age. Long long before the 5th age. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamental-lotr-question/469437/63 "2008-10-26T15:04:07Z")
I think in a very real way Sauron _did_ want to destroy the world of men: he wanted it to be _his_ world, not under their influence or domination. He wanted to own or rule everything in Middle Earth, for no other reason than that he currently didn’t; it all ultimately was the creation of Eru (and the Valar), and he wanted to take it, partially out of spite, as has been mentioned before, and partially from his own arrogance, greed, and megalomania. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamental-lotr-question/469437/64 "2008-10-26T15:15:59Z")
**Qadgop** I agree Sauron could never have successfully fought the Valar. My question was whether _he thought he could_. As others have noted in this thread, in Tolkien’s world evil has a way of thinking itself grander than it is. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamental-lotr-question/469437/65 "2008-10-26T16:27:03Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Qadgop** I agree Sauron could never have successfully fought the Valar. My question was whether _he thought he could_. As others have noted in this thread, in Tolkien’s world evil has a way of thinking itself grander than it is. The Valar have the power to literally change the landscape. No maia has that power. I don’t think, even in his wildest dreams, Sauron saw himself as able to take down the greater powers. Much more likely would be an effort to retrieve Morgoth. Also possible would be an effort to make everything that was not-Valinor so awful that the Vala would cease to enjoy the situation. Remember, in the Third Age, Valinor is no longer physically connected to Middle-Earth except by a “straight road” that only certain beings can travel, with permission. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamental-lotr-question/469437/66 "2008-10-26T16:38:00Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Qadgop** My question was whether _he thought he could_. Given how chastened he was by his losing his body in the wreck of Numenor, I’d be inclined to say ‘no’. Now, he could be delusional enough to think otherwise, but nothing I’d seen in JRRT’s writings really gives me pause to think this was the case. He was arrogant, but fearful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamental-lotr-question/469437.md?page=3)