# Fundamentalist Atheists equivalent to Fundamentalist Theists **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001 "2011-04-19T21:35:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/41 "2011-04-19T23:51:40Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > So if a 9/11 truther or moon hoaxer or any of that stuff were to tell you their beliefs, your response would be a polite “well I disagree but I respect your right to have an opinion that you feel is logical and reasonabe”? > > That may be so, but I don’t think you’d be an asshole for saying “wtf!? idiot” > > You want religion to have a special status that other nonsense beliefs don’t get. I was about to make that same point. It seems to be o.k. to mock or ridicule minor nonsense such as bigfoot followers and hollow earth believers, but when it comes to the _big_ illogical beliefs suddenly we are required to respect those who believe. Elves? Silly. Angels? Personal belief to be respected. Hollow Earth? Silly. Earth created in six days? Religious belief to be respected. Santa Claus? Silly God? Religious belief to be respected. At some point the illogical becomes so great that it actually becomes a sort of psuedologic. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/42 "2011-04-19T23:52:22Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > So the analogy here would be if someone were loudly on the street corner declaring that the moon landing was a hoax and that anyone who didn’t believe that was a stupid sheep, then someone else coming up and saying “hey idiot, look at this evidence!” and then the first person saying “well, you’re outspoken and sure of your beliefs just like I am, therefore you’re no better than me!” It’s worse than that. The actual fundamentalist asshole liar believers are the ones that want to claim that atheism or even “darwinism” are religions or faiths. What I can’t get my head around is that they - the people asserting that their faith and religion is the most important thing there can ever be - are actually using the words “faith” and “religion” as negative terms. There’s something very seriously wrong there. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/43 "2011-04-19T23:55:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or the writer is just lying about what TJ said; religious people do _that_ a lot too. They love to put words in the mouths of dead or dying atheists, usually pretending they “saw the light” at the last moment. I don’t see any reason (beyond a blatant if not ridiculous personal bias) to assume that is the case. T.J. said (well, I’ll assume so) he could use all the help he could get. He politely didn’t point out that his friend’s prayers were not helpful in the least. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/44 "2011-04-19T23:58:17Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > It’s worse than that. The actual fundamentalist asshole liar believers are the ones that want to claim that atheism or even “darwinism” are religions or faiths. What I can’t get my head around is that they - the people asserting that their faith and religion is the most important thing there can ever be - are actually using the words “faith” and “religion” as negative terms. There’s something very seriously wrong there. Well, the whole point is the same as the OP. Atheists are fundamentally in a superior position because they are not asserting things for which they have no proof. On some level believers understand this, so they attempt to alleviate the pressure of this understanding by dragging atheists down to their level. So instead of thinking “Wow, your absense of belief in the absense of evidence is more logical than my belief in the absense of evidence”, which threatens their world view, they just say “oh you’re just the same as me, except Darwin is your prophet and atheism is your religion”. That way, to them, everyone is on the same playing field and you just have different (and obviously wronger!) beliefs than they do. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/45 "2011-04-20T00:01:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t see any reason (beyond a blatant if not ridiculous personal bias) to assume that is the case. The fact that lying about what atheists said on their deathbeds (and elsewhere, for that matter) is such a common thing. I’m sure we’ll hear about how Richard Dawkins confessed his faith in Jesus when he dies. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/46 "2011-04-20T00:03:57Z")
> [@SSgtBaloo](#): > > Just how rational is it to assume that it’s your job to educate the masses. I think you’re in the wrong place if this is your attitude towards fighting ignorance. > [@](#): > > Especially if you do it one person at a time, in a fashion that conveys your distain for that person and things they hold dear? If it’s an irrational belief, won’t this person irrationally defend his position without regard to the “facts” you quote to him? (Yes, the person you will be talking to will hear the quotation marks even if you didn’t mean them to be there). In most cases, perhaps. But it can still have beneficial effects. It may inform third parties, like arguments on this board between rational people and true believers. It may actually cause someone to think about the issue and come to different conclusions. It reduces the social pressure of conforming to that belief (if you grow up in a town where absolutely everyone is on the same page religiously, you may not ever actually be exposed to the counter-arguments on the irrationality to your beliefs, and you are far more likely to accept them unquestioned), etc. > [@](#): > > What really is the point of confronting them except to ensure they know you disagree and think them stupid and/or irrational? How does this make the world a better place for either of you. To me it just looks like you’re “counting coup”. That’s not the hill I’d choose to die on. Ignorance and irrationality should be fought where it’s practical. Do you think those asshole fundamental atheists who show up at school boards to testify against people trying to put intelligent design in the curriculum are just smug, troublemaking assholes? > [@](#): > > My own probable reaction? [Voice of Experience] If they refuse to allow the conversation to be about something other than their irrational (to me) beliefs, then my response would be to as gracefully as possible, make a fast getaway, or at least as fast as I can manage with defective knees and a cane. 😉 I take meds to control anxiety and depression and do not need to hang with crazy people, at least ones that make me feel like my meds aren’t doing their job. [/VoE] Well, great for you. Some of us feel that it’s an obligation to fight ignorance where we can. Again, perhaps this board may not be for you. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe I’m particularly irrational because of my beliefs. Who does? > [@](#): > > I’m pretty careful what I label a fact. If I don’t recognize I could be wrong, or at least have an incomplete understanding or knowledge of the facts, I’m more likely to believe others are idiots whether they are the idiot in this case or I am. Well, that’s good, if true. Gives you half a leg up on people who aren’t, but then, you still share the same core beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/47 "2011-04-20T00:18:41Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Well, the whole point is the same as the OP. Atheists are fundamentally in a superior position because they are not asserting things for which they have no proof. On some level believers understand this, so they attempt to alleviate the pressure of this understanding by dragging atheists down to their level. > > So instead of thinking “Wow, your absense of belief in the absense of evidence is more logical than my belief in the absense of evidence”, which threatens their world view, they just say “oh you’re just the same as me, except Darwin is your prophet and atheism is your religion”. That way, to them, everyone is on the same playing field and you just have different (and obviously wronger!) beliefs than they do. I agree; they don’t actually believe their own claims to faith as the ultimate truth. That’s just a convenient smoke screen to swap real knowledge with made up stories. The most fundamentalist evangelicals will stoop as low as to make up evidence to back up their claims, and the reason they do that is because they really _do_ know that without evidence, any claim about reality can be dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/48 "2011-04-20T00:20:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I was about to make that same point. It seems to be o.k. to mock or ridicule minor nonsense such as bigfoot followers and hollow earth believers, but when it comes to the _big_ illogical beliefs suddenly we are required to respect those who believe. > Elves? Silly. > Angels? Personal belief to be respected. > Hollow Earth? Silly. > Earth created in six days? Religious belief to be respected. > Santa Claus? Silly > God? Religious belief to be respected. > At some point the illogical becomes so great that it actually becomes a sort of psuedologic. There are also certain religions that it’s ok for the mainstream religions to bash or mock - Scientology, Wicca, Raelians, Islam - it’s really only mainstream Christianity (and even then, some denominations like LDS or JW’s might still get derided) and Judiasm which are considered sancrosanct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/49 "2011-04-20T00:21:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The fact that lying about what atheists said on their deathbeds (and elsewhere, for that matter) is such a common thing. I’m sure we’ll hear about how Richard Dawkins confessed his faith in Jesus when he dies. If I recall correctly, Dawkins has said that he wants to videotape his last moments to keep this from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/50 "2011-04-20T00:22:41Z")
The term fundementalist has become a perjorative to refer to certain types of Christians who are strident, outspoken, and shove their noses into the business of others. There might be other Christians who take the Bible literally who qualify as having similar beliefs, but they are not in your face about it. Seeking a term to refer to that subset of the atheist population that ALSO has a strong asshole behavioral pattern is why you see “fundementalist atheist” being bandied about. There is a desire to have a way to refer to the asshole contingent without broad brushing all atheists, much as I do not choose to self identify with the fundementalist segment of the Christian community. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/51 "2011-04-20T00:25:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The fact that lying about what atheists said on their deathbeds (and elsewhere, for that matter) is such a common thing. I’m sure we’ll hear about how Richard Dawkins confessed his faith in Jesus when he dies. Since this is Great Debates - do you have a cite for this rampant lying about deathbed conversions? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/52 "2011-04-20T00:33:41Z")
'Fundamentalist" is still the wrong word, though, since that word denotes a strong adherence to a core set of precepts, or to a sacred text. Atheism contains no beliefs and no text, so has nothing to adhere to or be “fundamentalist” about. Even religious fundamentalists aren’t necessarily strident or obnoxious. I suppose “evangelical” atheists might be fair to describe those atheists who are aggressive about trying to “de-convert” theists, or who are gratuitously demeaning, or offer their opinions unasked. I would submit that most atheists rarely talk about it, though. Certainly nowhere close to how God beliefs are ubiquitously and casually expressed by theists (especially in certain geographical regions of the US). ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/53 "2011-04-20T00:40:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > 'Fundamentalist" is still the wrong word, though, since that word denotes a strong adherence to a core set of precepts, or to a sacred text. Atheism contains no beliefs and no text, so has nothing to adhere to or be “fundamentalist” about. Even religious fundamentalists aren’t necessarily strident or obnoxious. > > I suppose “evangelical” atheists might be fair to describe those atheists who are aggressive about trying to “de-convert” theists, or who are gratuitously demeaning, or offer their opinions unasked. > > I would submit that most atheists rarely talk about it, though. Certainly nowhere close to how God beliefs are ubiquitously and casually expressed by theists (especially in certain geographical regions of the US). I agree with you on the twisted syntax, but Fundie just seems more perjorative than Evangelical to me to capture the feeling. I also agree that most Atheists are NOT this way, but then again I also think that most Christians are not either. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/54 "2011-04-20T00:43:03Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Since this is Great Debates - do you have a cite for this rampant lying about deathbed conversions? I don’t know if this counts as rampant, but from some random message board: > [@](#): > > Published in the Ft. Lauderdale, Florida ‘News and Sun Sentinnel’ > newspaper . 1968. : > > Verbatim quotes by famous Atheists on their deathbeds — > > 1. Sir Walter Scott : " Now i know there is a heaven" > > 2. Taleran (french) :" I am suffering the pangs of the damned" > > 3. Adams : (tore his hair out as he repeatedly said ):" Oh Christ, oh > Christ, Oh Christ…" > > 4. Voltaire :" I die abandoned by God and man" (the nurse by his bedside > said that she would never watch another atheist die as long as she lived > because it was too horrific for her) > > 5. Vollney kept screaming out :" My God my God, my God…" till he > died) > > 6. Meravue :" Give me opium that i may not think of eternity" > > 7. Brown :" Devils are in the room dragging my soul to hell" > > 8. Newport :" Millions and millions of years will bring me no closer to > the end of my torments. O, the unsufferable pains of hell, forever and > forever". Other sites: [http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Atheists-Deathbed-Conversion--NEAR-100-Per-Cent.html](http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Atheists-Deathbed-Conversion--NEAR-100-Per-Cent.html) [http://www.slideshare.net/stevecamo1/deathbed-confessions-atheists](http://www.slideshare.net/stevecamo1/deathbed-confessions-atheists) And I got tired of linking at this point. It’s a common assertion. Of course some theists are more than willing to lie to convince others. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/55 "2011-04-20T00:46:17Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t know if this counts as rampant, but from some random message board: > Other sites: [http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Atheists-Deathbed-Conversion--NEAR-100-Per-Cent.html](http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Atheists-Deathbed-Conversion--NEAR-100-Per-Cent.html) > > [http://www.slideshare.net/stevecamo1/deathbed-confessions-atheists](http://www.slideshare.net/stevecamo1/deathbed-confessions-atheists) > > And I got tired of linking at this point. It’s a common assertion. Of course some theists are more than willing to lie to convince others. So no defensible cite then. Passed around glurge doesn’t strike me as a GD worthy city, except as evidence that glurge has continued to be forwarded. I could also ask for the cite that disproves all of those quotes instead. But since I am not the one who claimed lying, nor the one who used this list, I will continue to await the evidence. Or should I just take you all on faith? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/56 "2011-04-20T00:50:04Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I could also ask for the cite that disproves all of those quotes instead. But since I am not the one who claimed lying, nor the one who used this list, I will continue to await the evidence. > > Or should I just take you all on faith? Is there any kind of evidence you would accept? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/57 "2011-04-20T00:53:22Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > So no defensible cite then. Passed around glurge doesn’t strike me as a GD worthy city, except as evidence that glurge has continued to be forwarded. > > I could also ask for the cite that disproves all of those quotes instead. But since I am not the one who claimed lying, nor the one who used this list, I will continue to await the evidence. > > Or should I just take you all on faith? Your opinion is that commonly forwarded glurge doesn’t count as rampant lying? Okay, how about you set the terms here. What possible evidence would you accept? What percentage is _rampant_? Is that some set percentage of all conversations all theists everywhere have? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/58 "2011-04-20T00:54:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Someone who kills God with a suicide bomb? Suicide bomber to God - you have to let me blow you up, otherwise I don’t have free will! ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/59 "2011-04-20T00:54:56Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Is there any kind of evidence you would accept? Sure - take that series of citations and show them to be lies. Then show that these are regularly trotted out by people of faith. Now, that could be showing that they are regularly used in the pulpit, or are posted on a series of Church websites, or some other such way of showing that people are running around lying about deathbed conversions. Personally, with 40+ years in Christian churches (starting with Evangelical, and currently Presbyterian), I have never had this particular list read to me, shown to me, emailed to me, or even discussed from the pulpit or in a Bible study class. I am sure that there are some out there that do it, but the way it was portrayed by **Der Trihs** - it was made to sound like lying about last words was a common occurance. If **Der Trihs** and others want to toss out assertians in Great Debates, they should be ready to back it up with facts. So - show me that the assertians are common, and show that they are lies. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/60 "2011-04-20T00:55:54Z")
I think an Atheist Extremist would \*not \*blow up someone with a bomb. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001.md?page=4)