# Fundamentalist Atheists equivalent to Fundamentalist Theists **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001 "2011-04-19T21:35:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/81 "2011-04-20T12:22:08Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I’ve pecked this out before and was attacked for it, but science is a branch of philosophy. So is religion. People often attack that which is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/82 "2011-04-20T12:28:18Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I’ve pecked this out before and was attacked for it, but science is a branch of philosophy. So is religion. “Science” led to the electronic keyboard you used to create that message. Religion did not, and indeed could not. Do you really want to suggest equivalence or interchangeability? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/83 "2011-04-20T14:16:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I was about to make that same point. It seems to be o.k. to mock or ridicule minor nonsense such as bigfoot followers and hollow earth believers, but when it comes to the _big_ illogical beliefs suddenly we are required to respect those who believe. > Elves? Silly. > Angels? Personal belief to be respected. > Hollow Earth? Silly. > Earth created in six days? Religious belief to be respected. > Santa Claus? Silly > God? Religious belief to be respected. > At some point the illogical becomes so great that it actually becomes a sort of psuedologic. It works like this message board. I can have a disagreement with you about something tiny, and it can go in IMHO. If it’s big, it goes GD. The rationale is exactly the same in real life. People don’t care as much about you disabusing them of their smaller beliefs. But pick a big one, and it’s going to make them upset. I’m sure you can find a belief to challenge that would make anyone upset. Just think about the trolls that have been on this board. Even knowing they are wrong, people still get upset. Everyone has irrational beliefs, or at least beliefs that are judged silly by someone else. And, if the belief is strong enough and emotional enough, I can guarantee that daring to challenge it will make you upset. I have more I could say about the actual thread topic, but I think this is something that is too important for people to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/84 "2011-04-20T14:43:43Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > People don’t care as much about you disabusing them of their smaller beliefs. But pick a big one, and it’s going to make them upset. I dunno, I’ve seen a lot of multi-page blowups over fairly trivial matters. Try claiming Deckard is a replicant and see where that takes you. He isn’t, by the way, ---
**Author:** ![Scot\_Dutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Scot\_Dutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scot_Dutch)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/85 "2011-04-20T15:08:08Z")
The OP could simply say “aren’t (blank) just as bad as (blank)?”, and the answer would usually be yes. We humans are all know-it-alls who love disparaging others with differing belief systems. But to answer the specific question, I am unaware of any Atheist Crusades, Atheist Inquisitions, or atheists flying planes into buildings in the name of atheism. So no, atheists aren’t as bad. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/86 "2011-04-20T15:51:50Z")
> [@SSgtBaloo](#): > > At least, Link=\> [according to this Article they are](http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/01/2092334/i-believe-because-i-do.html) \<=Link > > I agree. Whether the speaker is a hard-core atheist or a hard-core fundamentalist, there seems to be an absence of humility accompanied by huge amounts of self-congratulatory smugness. Many of my friends have been pretty decent people despite rejecting, for whatever reason, the tenets of my own faith. I’m okay with that and I’m okay that whatever process brought you to your conclusions regarding the nature of G-d, whether you believe He/She exists or not. Likewise, I don’t mind if you’re an adherent of a different form of theism (or atheism) than mine so long as you don’t feel morally bound to hound me into converting to your particular brand of thinking. > > I don’t really care if you profess a belief in G-d so long as you treat others with respect and compassion. You are free not to care about any of the above, but please comment and explain your own feelings on this topic if you feel so inclined. Just because I’m the O.P. does not mean I expect to (or am capable of) answering to everyone’s satisfaction. Keep in mind that “I Don’t Know” is a valid response. I would probably qualify as a fundamentalist atheist by that definition. I can be condescending and rude about the issue. Having said that my observation is a society run via the values of secular humanism will have better outcomes than one run via theism (more secular industrial societies with less rejection of science tend to fare better on a variety of measurements than the US including crime, social safety nets and respect for science, plus Freedom house in 2001 did some research showing massive deficits in civil and political freedoms in islamic majority countries vs. less religious countries [http://www.mfsd.org/debate/freedomhouse.htm](http://www.mfsd.org/debate/freedomhouse.htm) although I think there has been progress in the last 10 years). Bill O’Reilly and christian conservatives in the US feels the exact opposite, that theism is superior to secular humanism and secular humanists are corrupting society. But I don’t see what is so wrong with that, and not everyone is going to view everyone’s opinions as equal. I believe a society run via secular humanism will be superior to one run via theism. However I do reject the pseudoskepticism, materialism and allopathy and convention that you can see in some atheists. And I can see the authors point that in evolutionary timelines, we went from being scared of fire to thinking we know everything in a very short period. My concern with fundamentalist atheism (to use that term) is when it goes on crusades. Trying to convert people away from their faith, or supporting the war on terrorism because it is a war against religious people (which is what I think motivated people like Hitchens, who aside from his views on the war on terror was pretty leftist). ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/87 "2011-04-20T16:37:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “Science” led to the electronic keyboard you used to create that message. Religion did not, and indeed could not. Do you really want to suggest equivalence or interchangeability? :smack: What is science? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/88 "2011-04-20T16:38:23Z")
[QUOTE=SSgtBaloo] I agree. Whether the speaker is a hard-core atheist or a hard-core fundamentalist, there seems to be an absence of humility accompanied by huge amounts of self-congratulatory smugness. [/QUOTE] Why should anyone be humble about not believing in leprechauns? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/89 "2011-04-20T16:39:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s called English. An obscure but useful tongue. Couldn’t tell, what with all that spittle coming out of your mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/90 "2011-04-20T16:52:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why should anyone be humble about not believing in leprechauns? Why should anyone be self-congratularily smug about not believing in leprechauns? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/91 "2011-04-20T17:00:00Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > :smack: > > What is science? It’s a process of hypothesis and observation that allowed electricity to be studied and eventually manipulated, while religion was stalled on attributing it to Thor or whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/92 "2011-04-20T17:00:25Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Why should anyone be self-congratularily smug about not believing in leprechauns? Because it’s hard not to be when facing people who do insist that leprechauns are real. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/93 "2011-04-20T17:04:20Z")
If I’m not allowed to feel superior to people who literally believe a magical space wizard made a guy out of dirt and a chick out of his rib 10,000 years ago, who the fuck _am_ I allowed to look down on? ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/94 "2011-04-20T17:16:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “Science” led to the electronic keyboard you used to create that message. Religion did not, and indeed could not. Do you really want to suggest equivalence or interchangeability? Religion created the “don’t be a jerk” rule that stopped you from adding “… you credulous moron!” to the end of your first sentence. Science did not, and indeed could not. Different domains of experience, different toolkits to parse them with. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/95 "2011-04-20T17:18:21Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > +1 > > I’ve pecked this out before and was attacked for it, but science is a branch of philosophy. So is religion. Let’s not get our panties in a bunch. Science used to be a branch of philosophy, which is clear if you read the Greek and Roman natural philosophers and those from early Europe. But if you read scientific papers starting from Copernicus, you will see a move from philosophical arguments to experiments and math. They both involve logical thinking to be sure, but science checks its answers which philosophy cannot do. And I’ve taken both - at MIT in fact, which has quite a large philosophy department. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/96 "2011-04-20T17:19:57Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Religion created the “don’t be a jerk” rule that stopped you from adding “… you credulous moron!” to the end of your first sentence. Science did not, and indeed could not. Different domains of experience, different toolkits to parse them with. I think Ed created that rule. What does religion have to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/97 "2011-04-20T17:34:54Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Why should anyone be self-congratularily smug about not believing in leprechauns? Why should someone waste time thinking about not believing in leprechauns? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/98 "2011-04-20T17:40:35Z")
Probably because leprechaun-belief related wars have killed hundreds of millions of people, the social pressure of believing in leprechauns has seriously impacted their lives, government wants to pass laws based on what we should do to make the leprechauns more likely to give up their pots of gold, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/99 "2011-04-20T17:41:17Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Why should someone waste time thinking about not believing in leprechauns? Generally nobody does. Until some door-knob pops up insisting they are real. Seems analogous of … something. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001/100 "2011-04-20T20:11:23Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Religion created the “don’t be a jerk” rule that stopped you from adding “… you credulous moron!” to the end of your first sentence. :rolleyes: Please. The absolute last thing that religion is about is not being a jerk. All you are doing is the standard religious trick of giving religion credit for things it had nothing to do with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fundamentalist-atheists-equivalent-to-fundamentalist-theists/579001.md?page=6)